1 00:00:03,030 --> 00:00:01,429 this is the longest interview i've ever 2 00:00:03,909 --> 00:00:03,040 done because there are such intriguing 3 00:00:05,670 --> 00:00:03,919 uh questions 4 00:00:07,110 --> 00:00:05,680 well yeah the fact i'm still here it's 5 00:00:10,950 --> 00:00:07,120 just but 6 00:00:14,070 --> 00:00:10,960 i've had a great time i don't go to 7 00:00:16,550 --> 00:00:14,080 our next next exchange 8 00:00:17,109 --> 00:00:16,560 carl fristen is considered by his peers 9 00:00:19,590 --> 00:00:17,119 to be 10 00:00:20,310 --> 00:00:19,600 the top neuroscientist that exists 11 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:20,320 probably that 12 00:00:25,189 --> 00:00:23,199 ever existed now obviously he won't say 13 00:00:27,670 --> 00:00:25,199 that he'll rebuff that because he's a 14 00:00:30,070 --> 00:00:27,680 humble british chap who doesn't like to 15 00:00:31,509 --> 00:00:30,080 draw undue attention to himself but i 16 00:00:33,030 --> 00:00:31,519 give him that accolade he has a 17 00:00:34,709 --> 00:00:33,040 principle called the free energy 18 00:00:37,190 --> 00:00:34,719 principle which is 19 00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:37,200 infamously inscrutable but we try to 20 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:39,840 make it as simple as possible 21 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:42,800 please keep in mind that while there is 22 00:00:47,110 --> 00:00:44,320 plenty of technical jargon 23 00:00:48,470 --> 00:00:47,120 in this podcast it's important that you 24 00:00:49,670 --> 00:00:48,480 stay with it once you're at the end 25 00:00:51,029 --> 00:00:49,680 you'll probably have a better 26 00:00:52,389 --> 00:00:51,039 understanding as to how to interpret 27 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:52,399 what he said at the beginning this is 28 00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:54,640 one of the longest conversations if not 29 00:00:57,590 --> 00:00:56,160 the longest conversation with carl 30 00:01:00,310 --> 00:00:57,600 firsten that exists 31 00:01:01,990 --> 00:01:00,320 and not that size matters but you can 32 00:01:03,349 --> 00:01:02,000 use the duration or the length of a 33 00:01:04,630 --> 00:01:03,359 podcast as a proxy 34 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:04,640 for the interviewee's interest and 35 00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:06,880 that's great for me as an interviewer 36 00:01:10,550 --> 00:01:09,200 because hopefully the report comes 37 00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:10,560 across and 38 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:12,320 influences whether or not you can absorb 39 00:01:15,429 --> 00:01:13,840 the information or influences the rate 40 00:01:16,789 --> 00:01:15,439 at which you can absorb it and possibly 41 00:01:17,749 --> 00:01:16,799 even the comfortableness that me and 42 00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:17,759 carl have with 43 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:21,520 one another aids your understanding 44 00:01:25,030 --> 00:01:23,200 perhaps the integration of this 45 00:01:27,429 --> 00:01:25,040 information so that you can assemble 46 00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:27,439 your own veltan shawum that is your own 47 00:01:31,990 --> 00:01:28,240 theory 48 00:01:35,830 --> 00:01:34,230 these podcasts are extremely difficult 49 00:01:38,069 --> 00:01:35,840 to produce because they require 50 00:01:39,190 --> 00:01:38,079 quite a bit of preparation and if you're 51 00:01:40,789 --> 00:01:39,200 interested in supporting 52 00:01:43,109 --> 00:01:40,799 conversations like this or seeing more 53 00:01:44,469 --> 00:01:43,119 like this or you have other ideas as to 54 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:44,479 who i should interview and you'd like to 55 00:01:46,630 --> 00:01:46,000 support this channel in some way shape 56 00:01:48,270 --> 00:01:46,640 or form 57 00:01:49,990 --> 00:01:48,280 then please do consider going to 58 00:01:52,469 --> 00:01:50,000 patreon.com 59 00:01:54,149 --> 00:01:52,479 kurtjimongo literally every dollar every 60 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:54,159 donation every patron 61 00:01:57,910 --> 00:01:56,000 helps a tremendous amount not only 62 00:02:00,069 --> 00:01:57,920 financially but it also helps 63 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:00,079 with encouragement it helps show me that 64 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:01,600 this is something that people are 65 00:02:04,950 --> 00:02:03,200 people like and are willing to support 66 00:02:06,789 --> 00:02:04,960 voluntarily 67 00:02:08,389 --> 00:02:06,799 thank you to all the existing patrons 68 00:02:10,469 --> 00:02:08,399 and just so you know the best way to 69 00:02:12,390 --> 00:02:10,479 view this podcast in spite like i said 70 00:02:14,630 --> 00:02:12,400 its inscrutable nature as to what 71 00:02:16,229 --> 00:02:14,640 exactly the free energy principle is 72 00:02:18,869 --> 00:02:16,239 the best way to view this podcast or 73 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:18,879 listen to it is by re-listening to it 74 00:02:21,750 --> 00:02:20,080 by the end of it you'll have a better 75 00:02:22,150 --> 00:02:21,760 understanding as to what carl firsten 76 00:02:23,990 --> 00:02:22,160 means 77 00:02:25,510 --> 00:02:24,000 when he says certain terminology and 78 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:25,520 then when you re-watch 79 00:02:29,110 --> 00:02:27,280 or revisit certain parts you can look at 80 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:29,120 the timestamps revisit and hopefully 81 00:02:32,869 --> 00:02:31,120 gain a better understanding for those 82 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:32,879 listening and not watching 83 00:02:36,309 --> 00:02:34,640 there is also a youtube channel and for 84 00:02:39,830 --> 00:02:36,319 those who are watching and not listening 85 00:02:41,430 --> 00:02:39,840 there is a itunes spotify google play 86 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:41,440 we're on pretty much every platform you 87 00:02:43,589 --> 00:02:42,720 can look at the description to get the 88 00:02:46,869 --> 00:02:43,599 links for that 89 00:02:47,990 --> 00:02:46,879 thank you so much and enjoy sir it's a 90 00:02:49,670 --> 00:02:48,000 pleasure 91 00:02:51,670 --> 00:02:49,680 i have been looking forward to this for 92 00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:51,680 quite some time as i started researching 93 00:02:55,509 --> 00:02:52,480 you 94 00:02:57,670 --> 00:02:55,519 the top 95 00:02:59,670 --> 00:02:57,680 neuroscientists that are living but you 96 00:03:02,710 --> 00:02:59,680 may be the greatest neuroscientist 97 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:02,720 to ever exist i'm just going by the 98 00:03:06,149 --> 00:03:04,000 approbation from your own 99 00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:06,159 colleagues as well as your h index which 100 00:03:09,110 --> 00:03:07,280 is another 101 00:03:11,190 --> 00:03:09,120 reflection of colleagues approving of 102 00:03:14,309 --> 00:03:11,200 you and your citations which is 103 00:03:17,270 --> 00:03:14,319 in the six digits if i'm not mistaken 104 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:17,280 so how about first we start off with 105 00:03:23,030 --> 00:03:19,120 just how is it that you balance work 106 00:03:24,149 --> 00:03:23,040 and life um very badly i i should say 107 00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:24,159 that i'm certainly not 108 00:03:27,350 --> 00:03:26,560 the greatest neuroscientist i think 109 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:27,360 that's more of 110 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:29,920 a reflection of the fact they invented 111 00:03:36,149 --> 00:03:32,720 the h index a few years ago so 112 00:03:40,149 --> 00:03:36,159 it gives me an unfair fair advantage um 113 00:03:43,509 --> 00:03:40,159 the balance is is um is very poor 114 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:43,519 um so most of my life i spend 115 00:03:50,070 --> 00:03:46,560 um pursue academic 116 00:03:53,509 --> 00:03:50,080 uh commitments um in fact in the past 117 00:03:54,949 --> 00:03:53,519 in the past year also um commitments 118 00:03:56,070 --> 00:03:54,959 i've taken on in relation to the 119 00:03:59,670 --> 00:03:56,080 coronavirus 120 00:04:02,789 --> 00:03:59,680 outbreak in terms of modeling so um 121 00:04:04,949 --> 00:04:02,799 on the other hand i love what i do so 122 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:04,959 for me life is a bit of a holiday anyway 123 00:04:10,149 --> 00:04:06,799 i think many people who suffer 124 00:04:10,470 --> 00:04:10,159 my family in terms of my improper work 125 00:04:13,910 --> 00:04:10,480 life 126 00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:13,920 balance does your family get upset that 127 00:04:16,949 --> 00:04:15,760 you're constantly thinking about work 128 00:04:18,150 --> 00:04:16,959 or are you distracted when you're 129 00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:18,160 spending time with them because 130 00:04:22,710 --> 00:04:19,440 something else is on your mind 131 00:04:24,550 --> 00:04:22,720 um i think they've got used to it and i 132 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:24,560 have to say that they also have their 133 00:04:27,430 --> 00:04:26,560 preoccupations and their and their sort 134 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:27,440 of uh 135 00:04:31,350 --> 00:04:30,080 those um the things that they invest in 136 00:04:34,310 --> 00:04:31,360 so i think they are 137 00:04:37,510 --> 00:04:34,320 um as guilty as i am in in not paying 138 00:04:39,749 --> 00:04:37,520 proper attention to 139 00:04:41,189 --> 00:04:39,759 the uh the life side of the work life 140 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:41,199 balance 141 00:04:45,430 --> 00:04:43,600 do you have a daily ritual or do you 142 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:45,440 meditate do you eat a certain type of 143 00:04:47,909 --> 00:04:46,240 meal 144 00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:47,919 go to sleep at a specific time wake up 145 00:04:52,870 --> 00:04:50,000 at a specific time what's the structure 146 00:04:54,629 --> 00:04:52,880 i i am certainly a creature of habit um 147 00:04:55,990 --> 00:04:54,639 and i guess we'll come back to why that 148 00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:56,000 is possibly the case i should be the 149 00:04:59,510 --> 00:04:56,400 case 150 00:05:02,629 --> 00:04:59,520 for most creatures um so 151 00:05:04,870 --> 00:05:02,639 um no i i i don't meditate but um it's a 152 00:05:08,710 --> 00:05:04,880 it's an interesting question because 153 00:05:11,590 --> 00:05:08,720 my daily routine does involve 154 00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:11,600 a long period of thinking in the morning 155 00:05:18,629 --> 00:05:12,560 so 156 00:05:20,310 --> 00:05:18,639 joke and perhaps not joke that i i don't 157 00:05:21,189 --> 00:05:20,320 like talking to other human beings 158 00:05:27,990 --> 00:05:21,199 before 159 00:05:30,950 --> 00:05:28,000 my day typically will start with 160 00:05:33,110 --> 00:05:30,960 at least an hour if not two hours 161 00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:33,120 sitting and contemplating on the problem 162 00:05:36,390 --> 00:05:34,320 at hand 163 00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:36,400 usually in my conservatory smoking my 164 00:05:40,629 --> 00:05:38,160 pipe just drilling down 165 00:05:41,830 --> 00:05:40,639 without any um aids without a computer 166 00:05:45,029 --> 00:05:41,840 or without any 167 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:45,039 um pen and pencil just to boil down 168 00:05:49,270 --> 00:05:47,039 the simplicity of the problem at hand 169 00:05:51,430 --> 00:05:49,280 and try and see the architecture of 170 00:05:53,029 --> 00:05:51,440 of the solution and then it's a question 171 00:05:56,390 --> 00:05:53,039 of buckling down 172 00:05:58,790 --> 00:05:56,400 to emails or then uh doing 173 00:05:59,749 --> 00:05:58,800 coding or mathematical derivations or 174 00:06:01,670 --> 00:05:59,759 writing something up 175 00:06:03,430 --> 00:06:01,680 for the rest of the day and when i start 176 00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:03,440 talking to other people 177 00:06:07,029 --> 00:06:05,120 you sit without a pen and a paper and 178 00:06:09,909 --> 00:06:07,039 you just think with your eyes closed 179 00:06:11,510 --> 00:06:09,919 um well i actually enjoy looking at the 180 00:06:12,629 --> 00:06:11,520 garden whilst thinking but i do get 181 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:12,639 distracted yeah 182 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:15,840 yeah and if you see me close my eyes 183 00:06:18,950 --> 00:06:17,360 i'm often thinking deeply about what 184 00:06:20,390 --> 00:06:18,960 you're saying i don't want you to think 185 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:20,400 i'm distracted or sleepy just so you 186 00:06:23,029 --> 00:06:21,520 know 187 00:06:24,629 --> 00:06:23,039 this it just sounds extremely british of 188 00:06:26,629 --> 00:06:24,639 you to have a pipe 189 00:06:28,870 --> 00:06:26,639 and do you drink tea are you sitting 190 00:06:31,590 --> 00:06:28,880 with biscuits do you have a breakfast 191 00:06:35,110 --> 00:06:31,600 well no um in the morning it's coffee 192 00:06:37,590 --> 00:06:35,120 and then tea would be for the afternoon 193 00:06:38,629 --> 00:06:37,600 without without biscuits but certainly 194 00:06:40,629 --> 00:06:38,639 coffee in the morning 195 00:06:42,629 --> 00:06:40,639 tea in the afternoon how do you choose 196 00:06:43,350 --> 00:06:42,639 which problems to tackle because i 197 00:06:45,909 --> 00:06:43,360 assume that 198 00:06:47,189 --> 00:06:45,919 maybe 80 percent of the reason for your 199 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:47,199 high h index is 200 00:06:53,589 --> 00:06:50,560 the problem selection yeah absolutely 201 00:06:56,150 --> 00:06:53,599 um and you know i often 202 00:06:57,670 --> 00:06:56,160 um have heard it said that the the mark 203 00:07:01,350 --> 00:06:57,680 of a great scientist 204 00:07:02,950 --> 00:07:01,360 is not the the the answers that they 205 00:07:05,670 --> 00:07:02,960 offer it's really the questions that 206 00:07:08,150 --> 00:07:05,680 they ask and i have to say that um 207 00:07:09,110 --> 00:07:08,160 most the questions that i'm obliged to 208 00:07:12,230 --> 00:07:09,120 contend with 209 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:12,240 are those that are proffered um either 210 00:07:16,309 --> 00:07:13,680 by colleagues internationally 211 00:07:17,510 --> 00:07:16,319 and most of the time by the uh by the 212 00:07:20,150 --> 00:07:17,520 younger people 213 00:07:22,469 --> 00:07:20,160 um that i work with or supervise so it's 214 00:07:23,189 --> 00:07:22,479 really i spend most my time in response 215 00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:23,199 mode 216 00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:27,280 just trying to formulate and resolve 217 00:07:33,749 --> 00:07:30,560 questions that uh my 218 00:07:35,110 --> 00:07:33,759 international usually younger team uh 219 00:07:37,990 --> 00:07:35,120 bring to the table 220 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:38,000 so ninety percent of my work is just 221 00:07:41,589 --> 00:07:38,720 basically 222 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:41,599 um helping other people solve problems 223 00:07:43,189 --> 00:07:41,970 um 224 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:43,199 [Music] 225 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:45,520 about 10 of it when i have time it's 226 00:07:50,469 --> 00:07:47,440 sort of focusing on you know 227 00:07:52,469 --> 00:07:50,479 on my um particular hobby which um 228 00:07:53,589 --> 00:07:52,479 in latter years has become the free 229 00:07:56,550 --> 00:07:53,599 energy principle 230 00:07:57,990 --> 00:07:56,560 but that's somewhat rare opportunity 231 00:07:59,670 --> 00:07:58,000 most of the time you're working 232 00:08:01,830 --> 00:07:59,680 on other slightly more practical 233 00:08:03,830 --> 00:08:01,840 problems how has learning 234 00:08:05,749 --> 00:08:03,840 mathematics new mathematics new physics 235 00:08:07,350 --> 00:08:05,759 whatever it may be how's that changed 236 00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:07,360 in your later years compared to younger 237 00:08:14,710 --> 00:08:13,589 it's um well practically an honest 238 00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:14,720 answer to that question 239 00:08:20,869 --> 00:08:18,560 um is it's much easier now um 240 00:08:22,710 --> 00:08:20,879 because of things like wikipedia and the 241 00:08:26,230 --> 00:08:22,720 electronic age 242 00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:26,240 i mean certainly i 243 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:28,560 i had the conviction uh which i think is 244 00:08:32,790 --> 00:08:30,160 a proper conviction that to make 245 00:08:33,430 --> 00:08:32,800 um any real formal difference you you 246 00:08:35,269 --> 00:08:33,440 had to be 247 00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:35,279 able to articulate things mathematically 248 00:08:40,790 --> 00:08:37,440 so you made a particular point 249 00:08:41,670 --> 00:08:40,800 of um choosing an early career an 250 00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:41,680 education 251 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:44,000 that covered physics and maths and 252 00:08:48,070 --> 00:08:45,600 probability theory and the like 253 00:08:49,829 --> 00:08:48,080 but probably not not dissimilar to your 254 00:08:52,790 --> 00:08:49,839 early career um 255 00:08:53,509 --> 00:08:52,800 structure um and then forgot it all 256 00:08:56,949 --> 00:08:53,519 until i 257 00:08:58,870 --> 00:08:56,959 um returned um after a studying as a 258 00:09:02,230 --> 00:08:58,880 doctor with a psychiatrist 259 00:09:05,509 --> 00:09:02,240 to uh maths via data analysis in 260 00:09:07,269 --> 00:09:05,519 imaging neuroscience um so 261 00:09:08,630 --> 00:09:07,279 it was extremely useful having had that 262 00:09:11,910 --> 00:09:08,640 early physics 263 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:11,920 um sort of degree level education 264 00:09:15,590 --> 00:09:13,760 although i'd forgotten everything i at 265 00:09:17,269 --> 00:09:15,600 least had the confidence to relearn 266 00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:17,279 those bits that you need to know 267 00:09:21,350 --> 00:09:19,040 to make something work so it was very 268 00:09:23,910 --> 00:09:21,360 much on one of the situations of sort of 269 00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:23,920 c121 teach one where very quickly you 270 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:25,360 need to solve a problem 271 00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:27,200 and then you went to um you know in 272 00:09:29,509 --> 00:09:28,560 latter days at least you went to 273 00:09:31,190 --> 00:09:29,519 wikipedia 274 00:09:33,590 --> 00:09:31,200 you got the right equations and you put 275 00:09:36,310 --> 00:09:33,600 them together implemented it in code 276 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:36,320 and then proceed you know on to the next 277 00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:37,200 problem 278 00:09:44,550 --> 00:09:41,040 so um you know i have possibly 279 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:44,560 an undue respect or reverence for 280 00:09:48,310 --> 00:09:47,360 the utility of maths not you know not 281 00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:48,320 just in 282 00:09:52,550 --> 00:09:50,240 relation to its unreasonable efficacy 283 00:09:55,269 --> 00:09:52,560 but also as a language for communication 284 00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:55,279 as a you know a calculus that every 285 00:09:59,590 --> 00:09:56,160 like-minded 286 00:10:02,790 --> 00:09:59,600 academic um or indeed industrial partner 287 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:02,800 um will at some point subscribe to and 288 00:10:07,670 --> 00:10:04,720 drill down on and understand so 289 00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:07,680 i think it is the ultimate language um 290 00:10:11,509 --> 00:10:08,320 uh 291 00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:11,519 which you know effectively 292 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:15,279 most of what i say in words or write 293 00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:18,880 textually um inherits from 294 00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:20,880 and is always guided by the underlying 295 00:10:23,990 --> 00:10:22,640 the underlying mathematics 296 00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:24,000 before we get to the free energy 297 00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:25,360 principle which i'm going to ask you to 298 00:10:28,470 --> 00:10:26,959 explain as simply as you can 299 00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:28,480 and then you can go as complex as you 300 00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:30,000 can later but 301 00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:31,680 before we get to that i found that there 302 00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:33,120 were a few 303 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:34,800 words that you use in the different 304 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:36,560 interviews that i've seen of you 305 00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:38,240 that i'm unsure as to what you mean 306 00:10:40,949 --> 00:10:39,519 precisely when you say them so 307 00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:40,959 deflationary is one 308 00:10:44,230 --> 00:10:42,320 uh-huh what do you mean when you say 309 00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,240 deflationary because i'm sure that will 310 00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:46,480 come up over and over here right yes 311 00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:48,000 you're right that's one of my favorite 312 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:50,399 words at the moment um 313 00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:53,120 uh just taking uh if you want an honest 314 00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:54,880 answer i use it in the sense of 315 00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:57,279 just taking the hot air out of something 316 00:11:07,990 --> 00:10:58,079 um 317 00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:08,000 an over-interpretation of certain things 318 00:11:11,350 --> 00:11:08,480 so 319 00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:11,360 there is always a simpler explanation 320 00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,000 for 321 00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:14,640 various phenomena or behaviors or 322 00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:15,680 constructs 323 00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:19,040 um so for me a deflationary 324 00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:21,440 explanation is is a better thing in the 325 00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:22,880 sense that it provides 326 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:25,760 a simpler more parsimonious account of 327 00:11:29,350 --> 00:11:26,560 something 328 00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:29,360 than was on offer before that simpler 329 00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:29,839 account 330 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:32,880 came along so um 331 00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:35,760 philosophically um i think i'm using it 332 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:37,839 in the sense of 333 00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:40,000 what my friend andy clark who's one of 334 00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:41,040 the 335 00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:42,959 world's more accomplished um 336 00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:44,720 philosophers refers to 337 00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:47,120 as a sort of queenian desert landscape 338 00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:48,720 so this inherits from 339 00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:51,760 quine who um you know 340 00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:54,720 conceived of a set of explanations that 341 00:11:58,949 --> 00:11:55,120 was 342 00:12:02,230 --> 00:11:58,959 the desert landscape 343 00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:02,240 and a lot of a lot of the aspirations 344 00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:06,000 of our theorizing um actually points in 345 00:12:09,030 --> 00:12:07,279 that direction 346 00:12:10,870 --> 00:12:09,040 a little bit like natural selection i 347 00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,880 mean the natural selection is such a 348 00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:12,560 wonderful idea probably the you know the 349 00:12:16,949 --> 00:12:14,000 greatest biological 350 00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,959 idea um certainly in the past few 351 00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:18,079 centuries 352 00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,959 and yet it is inherently tautological um 353 00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:22,079 you know it just 354 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:24,320 almost goes away when you think about 355 00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:25,200 the the 356 00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:28,000 essential tautology of natural selection 357 00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,639 and 358 00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:30,399 so for me that's a beautiful idea that 359 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:32,639 is deflationary it explains so much 360 00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:35,680 with hardly anything when you mean when 361 00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:37,120 you're saying that natural selection is 362 00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:38,880 tautological do you mean to say that 363 00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,560 survival of the fittest well you're 364 00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:42,720 defining fitness by survival anyway 365 00:12:46,470 --> 00:12:44,959 that's exactly right yep that's exactly 366 00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:46,480 what i mean yeah 367 00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:49,680 okay okay now self-evidencing 368 00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,959 self-evidencing is a philosophical term 369 00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:54,959 um which i think has been around for 370 00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,000 some time 371 00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,959 but i was introduced to it by my other 372 00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:00,000 philosophy friend 373 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:03,920 yucca powy who's currently in melbourne 374 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:07,200 as a nice perspective on 375 00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,120 the one take on what we do or what the 376 00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:13,279 imperatives existential imperatives 377 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:16,480 um behind our behavior and our 378 00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:19,200 dynamics if you're a physicist which is 379 00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:20,720 to maximize the 380 00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:24,079 evidence for your models of of the world 381 00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:27,920 so in maximizing the evidence sometimes 382 00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,200 described perhaps poetically as 383 00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:33,360 acting to garner evidence for your own 384 00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:34,320 existence 385 00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:37,200 you can be said to be self-evidencing um 386 00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:38,079 i just say 387 00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,920 it's a slight play on words from the 388 00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:41,279 point of view of 389 00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:44,480 a mathematician because um 390 00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:48,800 nearly every interesting formulation um 391 00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:52,639 of self-organizing systems has itself in 392 00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:54,959 so you start off with self-organizing 393 00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:55,920 systems 394 00:13:59,949 --> 00:13:58,240 um of the sort you might see as a 395 00:14:03,030 --> 00:13:59,959 computational chemistry through 396 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,040 self-assembly um sometimes in the 397 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:06,320 biological uh sciences people refer to 398 00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:09,040 um autophagus which you know is again 399 00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:10,079 greek for 400 00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:13,199 for self-creation um you start off just 401 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,639 thinking about the information 402 00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:16,880 theory that would underwrite that kind 403 00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:18,639 of self-organization the first thing you 404 00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:20,880 come across is self-information 405 00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:24,240 um you know following that through 406 00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:27,279 and you can sort of spin off um 407 00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,839 all sorts of other selfs in terms of um 408 00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:33,440 self-serving behaviors that you can 409 00:14:35,829 --> 00:14:35,120 write down in terms of information 410 00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:35,839 theory 411 00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,959 and for me the simplest and most um 412 00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:40,399 the prettiest is this notion of 413 00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:42,480 self-evidencing what about equilibrium 414 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:44,720 state versus a non-equilibrium steady 415 00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:45,360 state 416 00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:47,680 so that one's not idiosyncratic to you 417 00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:48,560 right no 418 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:51,760 no heavens though um and again remember 419 00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:52,000 i'm 420 00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,120 you're i 421 00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:57,120 trained as a physicist as a young man 422 00:15:02,550 --> 00:14:58,480 but haven't um haven't 423 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,560 sort of um really been in that field 424 00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:03,920 throughout my career but 425 00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:07,760 my reading of um physics um 426 00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,639 as it applies to um the kinds of systems 427 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:12,399 that we we have to deal with 428 00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:15,760 um can be read as sort of 20 century 429 00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:16,320 physics 430 00:15:19,509 --> 00:15:19,279 where you're dealing with closed systems 431 00:15:22,949 --> 00:15:19,519 at 432 00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,959 equilibrium and then the 21st century 433 00:15:27,269 --> 00:15:24,720 people got much more interested 434 00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:27,279 in the physics of open systems that are 435 00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:30,800 far from equilibrium or non-equilibrium 436 00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:34,000 and what can you do with these kinds of 437 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:35,120 systems well you can 438 00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:37,920 you can write down their dynamics their 439 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:40,480 density dynamics you can 440 00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,720 formalize the behavior of the 441 00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:44,160 probability distribution over the 442 00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:46,079 various states of these systems 443 00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:49,519 and how they would unfold from any given 444 00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:52,240 initial condition to some steady state 445 00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,360 distribution 446 00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,920 um for me though it is the steady state 447 00:15:58,350 --> 00:15:57,040 distribution which is interesting 448 00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:58,360 because that provides you with a 449 00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:59,600 well-defined 450 00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:02,000 probability distribution and once you've 451 00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:03,120 got that 452 00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:04,880 then you can go forward in terms of the 453 00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:06,160 information theory 454 00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:07,680 and spin off everything that you might 455 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:10,000 want to in terms of inference and 456 00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:13,920 and the like so the non-equilibrium part 457 00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:16,480 is absolutely crucial in the sense that 458 00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:17,440 it defines 459 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,279 a set of questions about systems 460 00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:24,320 that um are in exchange 461 00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:27,680 with a world out there so that there is 462 00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,720 you know from the 463 00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,079 uh thermodynamic point of view an 464 00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:32,000 exchange of energy and entropy 465 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,639 between the system and of itself and the 466 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,240 rest of the universe 467 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:39,040 um from a mathematical point of view um 468 00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:41,040 the non-equilibrium aspect is 469 00:16:48,310 --> 00:16:44,959 is inherited from um the prevalence 470 00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,320 of um circular flows 471 00:16:53,189 --> 00:16:51,519 solenoidal flows the sort of flow which 472 00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:53,199 if you were in machine learning would 473 00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:55,120 destroy detailed balance and 474 00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:56,560 that would have a lot of technical 475 00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:58,720 implications but what i'm talking about 476 00:17:03,350 --> 00:16:59,040 is 477 00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:03,360 get 478 00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:06,559 um in classical mechanics like the 479 00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:09,919 orbits of heavenly bodies or the um 480 00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:12,000 the circular fluctuations you get in 481 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,000 predator prey relationships or 482 00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,000 red queen dynamics wherever you look at 483 00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:18,000 sort of interesting systems 484 00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:21,039 that persevere over time you see this 485 00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:21,600 sort of 486 00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,799 solidal circular um oscillatory-like 487 00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:26,559 behavior 488 00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:29,600 and it is that which characterizes real 489 00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:32,880 dynamical systems that are 490 00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:35,760 you know i repeat not isolated from the 491 00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:37,120 rest of the universe or 492 00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,600 are not carefully and shrouded in a heat 493 00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,640 buff 494 00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,960 like an idealized gas but they actually 495 00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:44,080 have to contend 496 00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:47,360 with an exchange with the outside world 497 00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:49,520 so that's what's encapsulated by a 498 00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:51,120 non-equilibrium 499 00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:54,640 system um the steady state means that 500 00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:56,320 if you leave it alone for long enough it 501 00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:57,679 will self-organize 502 00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:01,280 into some recognizable configuration 503 00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:02,960 that you can describe probabilistically 504 00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:05,679 probabilistically with a probability 505 00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,400 density 506 00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:09,039 function uh or in terms of some 507 00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:11,039 attracting set a pullback attractor 508 00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:13,039 whatever your preferred kind of calculus 509 00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:14,480 our maths would be 510 00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:17,120 so steady state refers to it over time 511 00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:18,880 being somewhat stable but then the 512 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:20,640 non-equilibrium means that it can ramify 513 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:22,160 it can go between here and then it may 514 00:18:25,909 --> 00:18:24,160 jump here and then it may jump here but 515 00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:25,919 between three only instead of one would 516 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:27,440 be equilibrium no i think that's a very 517 00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:28,960 nice description um 518 00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:31,760 so yes absolutely so the steady state um 519 00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:32,799 just means that 520 00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:36,640 you know the system has settled down um 521 00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,360 to some um attracting set of states 522 00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:43,679 but within those that set of states 523 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:45,200 there is exactly what you were 524 00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:46,320 you were referring to there's an 525 00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,240 itinerancy there are different sort of 526 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:51,200 you know regimes or sub-manifolds of an 527 00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:52,240 attracting set 528 00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,760 which gives it an itinerancy or a 529 00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,679 wandering so it moves around 530 00:18:59,029 --> 00:18:57,360 from one part of the attracting set to 531 00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:59,039 another part of the attracting set 532 00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,679 so the example i like to use when trying 533 00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:02,640 to 534 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:05,679 get this notion in play is 535 00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:08,360 you know at every level of 536 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:09,520 self-organization 537 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:11,760 in me you see this phenomena whether 538 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,400 it's very very fast fluctuations 539 00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:17,200 in electrophysiological potentials in 540 00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:18,400 one 541 00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,240 at say the gamma frequency 542 00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:28,640 or whether it's my heartbeat you know 543 00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,200 unfolding during the cardiac cycle 544 00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,960 or whether it's me getting up in the 545 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,120 morning having a cup of coffee 546 00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:37,520 doing my emails or whether it's the 547 00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,240 annual 548 00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:40,160 cycles that we all enjoy sort of 549 00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:42,480 christmas easter summer holidays 550 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:45,760 every one of these instances of 551 00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:49,440 um you know an open system at some kind 552 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:49,919 of 553 00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:52,240 non-equilibrium steady state has in 554 00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:54,799 common the fact you keep revisiting 555 00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:57,039 certain states of being and it's that 556 00:20:01,350 --> 00:19:58,160 revisiting 557 00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:01,360 that defines this attracting set and 558 00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:04,880 um the your the steady state aspect so 559 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:06,240 exactly as you are doing with your 560 00:20:09,830 --> 00:20:07,280 fingers you are 561 00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:09,840 you are moving around from sort of uh 562 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:11,440 one part of the manifold to another part 563 00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:12,640 of the manifold 564 00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,760 you know if you're a physicist who did 565 00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:17,600 dynamical systems theory you might think 566 00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:19,600 of this in like a um 567 00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:21,360 a heteroclinic cycle where you're moving 568 00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:22,799 from one unstable point to the next 569 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:23,760 unstable point 570 00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,400 but you're always ultimately coming back 571 00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:28,320 to the same attracting set 572 00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:31,440 of unstable points so it's it's that you 573 00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,000 know 574 00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:34,400 um non-equilibrium so we're not at a 575 00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:36,720 fixed point we're not all aspiring 576 00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:39,039 um you know to be at thermodynamic 577 00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:40,080 equilibrium 578 00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:41,919 um there's an itinerancy and a 579 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:43,840 complexity and a richness 580 00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:47,200 to the behavior but on the other hand 581 00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:49,840 it's a behavior that evinces the same 582 00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,880 kinds of states 583 00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:52,960 the neighborhood of places in state 584 00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:55,200 space time and time and time again 585 00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,280 for the duration of the existence of of 586 00:21:01,590 --> 00:20:59,679 that particular system or particle or 587 00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:01,600 person in question 588 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:03,760 why did you call it the free energy 589 00:21:07,029 --> 00:21:05,200 principle when i first heard 590 00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:07,039 well i heard about it quite a few times 591 00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:08,400 then i kept dismissing it because i 592 00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:09,039 thought it was 593 00:21:12,070 --> 00:21:11,120 referring to perpetual motion or the 594 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:12,080 extraction of 595 00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:17,350 you're fluctuations right i understand 596 00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,480 that it has something to do with free 597 00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:20,240 energy in the physics term but what led 598 00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,720 you to 599 00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:22,159 calling it the free energy principle and 600 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,679 have you had have you heard of other 601 00:21:29,669 --> 00:21:27,350 have you heard of the case of mistaken 602 00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:29,679 identity from other people this is just 603 00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:30,400 me 604 00:21:37,990 --> 00:21:37,029 but not so nicely articulated or gently 605 00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:38,000 articulated 606 00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,799 um so yeah for me in my world 607 00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:45,600 the free energy was the um the most 608 00:21:49,990 --> 00:21:46,559 natural and obvious 609 00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:50,000 uh thing um to call it because um 610 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:51,679 the the kind of free energy that we're 611 00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:53,520 dealing with or when i say we 612 00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:57,120 um people in either base in statistics 613 00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:57,440 or 614 00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,280 laterally what would be known as as 615 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:01,919 machine learning 616 00:22:09,190 --> 00:22:06,320 would would would always refer to this 617 00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:09,200 quantity this variational free energy 618 00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:12,080 as a computable objective function for 619 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:12,640 any 620 00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,960 inference or estimation problem so 621 00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:16,480 whether you're doing sort of 622 00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:19,360 um classification with machine learning 623 00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:21,039 and you're using restricted builds of a 624 00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:22,640 machine and you're using 625 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:25,280 or let's make it more current so you're 626 00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:26,400 doing um 627 00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:29,120 you using high-end deep learning using a 628 00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:30,720 variational auto encoder 629 00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:34,240 to try and recognize um some sequence of 630 00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:35,280 images 631 00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:38,320 then the weights that you are 632 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:40,400 optimizing within that deep learning 633 00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,840 setting in that particular variation 634 00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:43,360 auto encoder setting 635 00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:46,240 um are optimized with respect to a 636 00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:47,600 variation free energy 637 00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:52,240 central role and has done for 638 00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:55,440 for um more than half a century now 639 00:23:01,590 --> 00:22:59,440 in optimization problems um 640 00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,600 its origins are actually really really 641 00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:02,640 quite interesting 642 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,480 um historically again this is not really 643 00:23:09,909 --> 00:23:07,120 my field but from what i gather 644 00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:09,919 there are two ways that the free energy 645 00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:10,559 sort of 646 00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:13,919 came into play the the the american 647 00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,640 route 648 00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:16,960 and this starts with richard feynman as 649 00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:18,320 as with most things 650 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:22,880 um so he had the problem of basically 651 00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,450 um wanting to 652 00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:25,919 [Music] 653 00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:29,600 you know express simply 654 00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:32,799 um evaluate the probability distribution 655 00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:35,600 over all the paths a an electron say 656 00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,159 could could 657 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:39,520 could take and he realized that that was 658 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:39,760 a 659 00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:44,480 problem he could he couldn't work out 660 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:45,120 the sort of 661 00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,960 the normalization constant to make sure 662 00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:48,480 that probability distribution 663 00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:51,440 summed to one so he was faced with an 664 00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:52,640 intractable 665 00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,039 um effectively integration problem in 666 00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:56,720 quantum electrodynamics 667 00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:00,159 so he solved him by converting that 668 00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:02,159 integration problem into an optimization 669 00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:02,880 problem 670 00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:05,520 and the way he did it was to introduce a 671 00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:07,039 variational free energy 672 00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,840 that was always greater than the 673 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:12,000 quantity that he wanted to minimize or 674 00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:12,960 was less than 675 00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,799 the quantity that he wanted to maximize 676 00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:16,480 which in this instance is just 677 00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:17,120 the marginal likelihood or the 678 00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:20,400 likelihood distribution of various paths 679 00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:24,000 say a small particle might take um so 680 00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:27,440 that's where i learned about free energy 681 00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:30,320 um essentially a feminine feminist free 682 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:31,120 energy 683 00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:34,320 that was provided a bound approximation 684 00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:36,559 to something that you actually wanted to 685 00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:38,320 maximize or optimize 686 00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:41,440 um and in my world 687 00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:45,120 that that thing you want to maximize 688 00:24:48,149 --> 00:24:47,279 is the model evidence or the marginal 689 00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:48,159 likelihood 690 00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:50,240 because back to self-evidencing but also 691 00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:51,360 the marginal likelihood 692 00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:52,960 sort of indicating that this is a 693 00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:55,760 central notion in in physics 694 00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:59,440 in bayesian statistics as well 695 00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:00,960 and that quantity that variation free 696 00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,159 energy um has been in play now for 697 00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:06,799 for for you know not quite a century but 698 00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:08,559 certainly many many decades 699 00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,559 um currently known as an elbow elbow 700 00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:14,960 an evidence lower bound so that evidence 701 00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:16,159 lower bound 702 00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,960 underwrites you know all of high-end 703 00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:20,000 machine learning 704 00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,440 um and you know certain simply 705 00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,600 reduced cases of it i i would i would 706 00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:26,799 actually suggest probably 707 00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:29,440 all of machine learning at some point 708 00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:30,400 refer to 709 00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:34,080 or can be seen as a special case of this 710 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:37,440 the other route um inherits more from 711 00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:38,880 the russian side 712 00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:42,240 and this is the notions of algorithmic 713 00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:43,919 complexity underlying universal 714 00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,120 computation 715 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,600 via common growth complexity and sort of 716 00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:48,720 induction 717 00:25:56,149 --> 00:25:52,000 um so the big drive there 718 00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:56,159 is is again formulating 719 00:26:01,990 --> 00:25:59,760 universal computation as basically 720 00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:02,000 communicating or articulating or 721 00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,000 encoding 722 00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:06,480 some structure in the simplest way 723 00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:07,520 possible 724 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:10,720 by introducing a bound 725 00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,000 on the thing that you want to you want 726 00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:17,120 to optimize or minimize or extremize 727 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:22,400 so you can also find the free energy 728 00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:25,600 in the context of um sort of 729 00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:28,720 um a more shallow nest 730 00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:31,279 like uh take on on communication and 731 00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:32,240 optimization 732 00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:35,520 and david mckay sort of originally 733 00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:38,480 um brought that perspective to the table 734 00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:39,440 perspective 735 00:26:44,549 --> 00:26:42,480 that was was um well understood 736 00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:44,559 by people like uh wallace in uh 737 00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:45,760 melbourne 738 00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:48,640 who themselves had taken it from from 739 00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:48,880 the 740 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,000 think he was 741 00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:54,640 he was an american but also uh you know 742 00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,640 taking this algorithmic complexity 743 00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:58,640 so it's a very long answer to to 744 00:27:00,789 --> 00:27:00,080 actually say that the free energy 745 00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:00,799 principle 746 00:27:07,430 --> 00:27:04,080 energy 747 00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:07,440 uh has underwritten um universal 748 00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:09,039 computation 749 00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:11,120 uh practical approaches to quantum 750 00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,240 electrodynamics 751 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:14,400 and machine learning since since the 752 00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:15,600 1950s 753 00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,679 so it was you know that's what the free 754 00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:19,039 energy means it's not the 755 00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:21,840 the energy is costless it's it's it's 756 00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:22,799 just uh 757 00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:25,520 borrows from the formalism of the 758 00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:26,399 thermodynamic 759 00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:28,960 uh free energy either gibbs or helmholtz 760 00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:31,120 free energy 761 00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:32,640 okay this sounds like a great time to 762 00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:34,240 explain what the free energy principle 763 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:35,600 is i know you touched on it but 764 00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:38,720 for the people who aren't aware 765 00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,399 right um so there are 766 00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:44,559 when asked to do this i i'll give you 767 00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:45,679 i'll give you a choice 768 00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:47,600 you can either take the high road or the 769 00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:48,960 low road 770 00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:52,480 so the high road 771 00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:56,080 would start with a consideration of what 772 00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:56,720 it is 773 00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:00,159 to exist to be something and 774 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:04,000 then unpack that in terms of um 775 00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:07,200 physics um and then ultimately you get 776 00:28:12,389 --> 00:28:10,399 to a picture of things that exist 777 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:12,399 as things that look as if they are 778 00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,520 trying to minimize 779 00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:16,240 their free energy and you can interpret 780 00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:18,640 that in terms of action and perception 781 00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:21,039 sentient behavior effectively a physics 782 00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:22,320 of sentience 783 00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:25,600 um where everything entailed by 784 00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,760 a particle that could be a sort of small 785 00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:29,520 particle or it could be a person 786 00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:33,200 or a plant anything that exists can be 787 00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:37,360 seen as or understood or characterized 788 00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:41,279 as trying to optimize or minimize 789 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:43,200 a free energy through changes in 790 00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:44,960 internal states or through 791 00:28:48,789 --> 00:28:47,440 action upon the world that would be the 792 00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,799 high road and we can take that if you 793 00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,159 choose that option 794 00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:52,960 the low road would be sort of building 795 00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:53,440 up 796 00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:57,200 um a sense of there being just one 797 00:29:01,590 --> 00:28:58,159 imperative 798 00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:01,600 um from the the notions that 799 00:29:05,269 --> 00:29:04,000 probably um can be found in the students 800 00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:05,279 of plato 801 00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:07,520 throughout philosophy through canned 802 00:29:11,669 --> 00:29:08,799 through helmholtz 803 00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:11,679 through modern day psychology and 804 00:29:17,029 --> 00:29:13,600 subsequently machine learning 805 00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:17,039 um would appeal to a story 806 00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,279 a narrative about prediction and 807 00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:20,960 inference and that we are 808 00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:24,720 all effectively prediction machines 809 00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,880 um where in this setting the 810 00:29:32,470 --> 00:29:31,679 the existential imperative is basically 811 00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:32,480 to reduce 812 00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:35,120 prediction error so by particular i 813 00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:37,440 simply mean that 814 00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,039 we have in mind 815 00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,919 a model of the way that the world works 816 00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:45,120 and that 817 00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:48,080 we can leverage that model to produce 818 00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:49,440 predictions about 819 00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,240 the sensory evidence at hand and the 820 00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:54,000 disparity or the difference between 821 00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:56,080 our predictions and our actual sensory 822 00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,480 samples can be called prediction error 823 00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:00,640 and it turns out mathematically that the 824 00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:02,960 sort of the high road and the low road 825 00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,159 um converge because the prediction error 826 00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:09,360 is just the gradient of the free energy 827 00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:10,640 that you're trying to 828 00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:13,279 try to minimize so i'll come back to you 829 00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:14,480 which would you prefer the 830 00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:17,520 the high road or the low road okay first 831 00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,320 when you say sentient do you mean the 832 00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,320 capacity to feel pleasure or pain 833 00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:24,640 or how are you using that word yeah just 834 00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:26,320 a sense um just to 835 00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:29,919 um not not so much the affect aspect not 836 00:30:36,310 --> 00:30:32,240 the sort of the pleasure and the pain 837 00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:36,320 just being able to um to represent and 838 00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:39,840 infer so to have in mind um 839 00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:42,880 a notion of what caused your sensations 840 00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:45,120 so you know i'm using it in a 841 00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:46,159 deflationary way 842 00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:50,799 um so some systems um 843 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:54,000 um may or may not have the kind of 844 00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:54,720 sentience 845 00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:56,960 that that you'd associate with with say 846 00:31:00,870 --> 00:30:57,760 a person 847 00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:00,880 or a you know a pet um 848 00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:03,279 say you know does a plant is a plant 849 00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,159 sentient 850 00:31:07,350 --> 00:31:06,320 um let me ask you do you think a plant 851 00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:07,360 is sentient does it 852 00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:10,559 does it have can it in an elemental way 853 00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,399 feel its way around the world or have 854 00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:14,399 some internal representation 855 00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:17,919 of um of the world that is that it 856 00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:19,919 inhabits 857 00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:21,360 i would say it's a scary thought to 858 00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:23,039 think of plants as extremely sentient 859 00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:24,080 because you crush them 860 00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:25,279 constantly and even if you're a 861 00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,760 vegetarian so i'm unsure if i think that 862 00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:29,679 they can feel pleasure pain it does seem 863 00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:30,399 like it's 864 00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:31,760 clear that they respond to the 865 00:31:34,149 --> 00:31:32,960 environment and that they take in 866 00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:34,159 sensory information 867 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:36,320 and act on it yes yeah i think that's 868 00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,440 absolutely true 869 00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:39,440 in fact interestingly they they have the 870 00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:40,880 same sort of 871 00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:43,840 um electrochemical message passing that 872 00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,679 we have with our axons 873 00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:47,919 you know in the brain it unfolds at a 874 00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:49,600 much slower time scale 875 00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:51,519 but the you know the physics of the 876 00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,600 message passing the internal 877 00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,679 um the internal states of a plan to 878 00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:57,120 actually uh 879 00:32:01,269 --> 00:31:59,679 comply with very similar kinds of 880 00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:01,279 computational architectures that 881 00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,120 your bread and mind is i i would say a 882 00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:04,799 plant is sentient but 883 00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:07,840 not to the extent that it has no 884 00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:10,720 emotions or even a sense of self you 885 00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:12,159 know there are lots of 886 00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:15,440 graded um very you know sort of 887 00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:17,440 ladder there are lots of steps on the 888 00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:19,440 ladder of sentience right through to 889 00:32:23,750 --> 00:32:21,440 self-awareness and pleasure and pain 890 00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:23,760 um but i'm talking about a very 891 00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:25,919 elemental sort where 892 00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:28,559 there's something going on in the inside 893 00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:29,919 that 894 00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:34,240 going on on the outside 895 00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:36,720 um that you can read as a kind of 896 00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:38,080 representation 897 00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:41,840 or an inference um about the causes of 898 00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:43,519 sensations 899 00:32:46,549 --> 00:32:45,120 okay so when you ask this question as to 900 00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,559 which explanation would i prefer the 901 00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,000 high road or the low road 902 00:32:51,350 --> 00:32:50,880 i imagine that as top down versus bottom 903 00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:51,360 up 904 00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:53,120 and when i say that please let me know 905 00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,399 if i'm understanding it correctly when 906 00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,679 you say the bottom up it's something 907 00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:57,200 like looking at what exists and seeing 908 00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,080 that it does 909 00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,399 act such that it minimizes some quantity 910 00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,000 or it wants to minimize 911 00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:04,000 error in some way versus the top down 912 00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,039 which looks like 913 00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:06,960 if i was to sit in an armchair with my 914 00:33:11,830 --> 00:33:08,799 eyes closed and think 915 00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,840 what exists okay what would have to be 916 00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,679 the case if it were to exist what 917 00:33:17,590 --> 00:33:15,200 properties would it have to have 918 00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:17,600 so one is is that correct am i no that's 919 00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:18,480 am i obtuse 920 00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,279 no that's brilliant yeah okay 921 00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:27,360 let's start with the top down let's just 922 00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,880 do the top down because i we have quite 923 00:33:31,669 --> 00:33:30,240 a few questions so let's start from the 924 00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:31,679 arm chair 925 00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,399 excuse me so okay i'll do the top down 926 00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,159 with a little nod to the bottom up so we 927 00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,200 don't we don't miss out on anything so 928 00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,279 you've just said what you know um uh 929 00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:43,120 basically the strategy 930 00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:46,399 you start off okay i want to explain um 931 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:49,600 anything a theory of everything yep so 932 00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:50,480 what's a thing 933 00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,000 well the first thing you have to contend 934 00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:53,919 with well how do i differentiate a thing 935 00:33:57,269 --> 00:33:54,240 from 936 00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:57,279 no thing or nothing or something else so 937 00:34:02,310 --> 00:33:58,559 that immediately 938 00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:02,320 implies that you're splitting or carving 939 00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:03,600 or partitioning 940 00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,960 the states of some universe into 941 00:34:11,190 --> 00:34:09,200 states that belong to the thing and 942 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:11,200 states that don't belong to the thing 943 00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:13,760 and when you think about what that means 944 00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:14,720 you have to 945 00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,079 um well you're compelled then 946 00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:21,119 to consider the statistical 947 00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,240 dependencies that demarcate 948 00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:27,359 something from nothing and 949 00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:30,159 when one drills down on that um you come 950 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:31,359 across this notion 951 00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:34,320 of a markov boundary or markov blanket 952 00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:35,760 which is effectively 953 00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:38,800 a set of states that separate or 954 00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:39,520 insulate 955 00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:41,839 internal states on the inside from 956 00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:44,079 external states on the outside 957 00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:47,839 so you have this picture of transactions 958 00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:48,639 mediated 959 00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:52,480 by standard dynamics by of the sort 960 00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:53,040 you'd see 961 00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:56,079 in physics with a launch van formulation 962 00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:59,440 um the kinds of equations of motions 963 00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:00,800 that everybody uses 964 00:35:04,710 --> 00:35:03,040 to you know to to to build their 965 00:35:07,349 --> 00:35:04,720 favorite physics whether it's sort of 966 00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:07,359 quantum mechanics or classical mechanics 967 00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:08,160 uh 968 00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:10,800 um cisco mechanics they all start with 969 00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:11,599 with the notion 970 00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:15,040 of there being some dynamics out there 971 00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:17,280 and the special kind of dynamics that 972 00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:18,880 you that we're interested in 973 00:35:25,109 --> 00:35:22,000 in terms of talking about anything um 974 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:25,119 is um applies 975 00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:28,800 to systems that have this partition 976 00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:30,800 so as soon as you put this partition 977 00:35:34,950 --> 00:35:32,000 into play 978 00:35:36,310 --> 00:35:34,960 which is basically a partition where 979 00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:36,320 internal states 980 00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:39,599 influence external states this direction 981 00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,119 through the blanket states 982 00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:43,760 and then external states influence 983 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:45,839 internal states in the other direction 984 00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:47,440 and vicariously through the markov 985 00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:48,960 blanket you have this notion of some 986 00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,000 generalized 987 00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:52,480 action and perception that you know the 988 00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:55,040 inside influences the outside so somehow 989 00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:57,440 the thing is acting upon the world but 990 00:36:01,910 --> 00:35:58,720 at the same time 991 00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:01,920 through the blanket states the outside 992 00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:04,240 is acting upon the inside 993 00:36:08,150 --> 00:36:07,119 you know and we normally divide the 994 00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:08,160 blanket states into 995 00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:09,520 sensory and active states so in this 996 00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,320 instance the outside external states it 997 00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:14,560 impress themselves upon the sensory 998 00:36:19,349 --> 00:36:16,640 states and then the sensory states 999 00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:19,359 influence the internal states and so 1000 00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:20,240 there's a sort of 1001 00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:23,520 circular causality implied 1002 00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:26,880 by this partition now all you do then 1003 00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:29,359 is say well look let's just look at the 1004 00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:31,200 long-term behavior 1005 00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:34,240 of any system um that 1006 00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:37,920 would that you can 1007 00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,880 describe in terms of the the dynamics or 1008 00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,240 the rate of change 1009 00:36:47,190 --> 00:36:44,000 of the probability distribution over 1010 00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:47,200 states or density of the states 1011 00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:50,400 and note that 1012 00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:52,480 because we are interested in systems 1013 00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:54,400 that have attained a non-equilibrium 1014 00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:55,520 steady state 1015 00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:58,720 that probability density is not itself 1016 00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:59,520 changing 1017 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:02,000 and when one does that when one looks at 1018 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:03,200 the solution 1019 00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,400 to the density dynamics in the context 1020 00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:07,680 of the markov blanket 1021 00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:10,560 you get a particular kind of mechanics 1022 00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:12,720 and that mechanics is exactly the same 1023 00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,960 as 1024 00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,880 quantum mechanics or statistical 1025 00:37:19,109 --> 00:37:16,160 mechanics 1026 00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:19,119 but with one key difference now it 1027 00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:19,760 applies 1028 00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:22,079 in the setting of a markov blanket and 1029 00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:23,920 it that that's where the 1030 00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:27,040 interpretation of um things 1031 00:37:30,150 --> 00:37:29,040 as self-evidencing comes from because 1032 00:37:33,910 --> 00:37:30,160 you can always 1033 00:37:37,349 --> 00:37:33,920 write down the flows that maintain 1034 00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:37,359 this steady state as um 1035 00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:40,720 effectively trying to trying to minimize 1036 00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:42,240 their prediction error 1037 00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:44,160 or minimize their self-information or 1038 00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:46,880 minimize their their 1039 00:37:50,310 --> 00:37:48,800 what's known as surprisal information 1040 00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:50,320 theory which 1041 00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,839 which mathematically is just the same 1042 00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,359 thing as uh 1043 00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:56,160 what statisticians like to call bayesian 1044 00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:57,520 model evidence or the log 1045 00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,760 of the probability of these sensory 1046 00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:01,599 states given my implicit 1047 00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:04,640 model encoded by 1048 00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:08,240 the internal states so what you end up 1049 00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:08,720 with 1050 00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:12,160 is a description of anything 1051 00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,200 defined stipulatively in terms of a 1052 00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,359 possessing a markov blanket 1053 00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:19,680 defined by its non-equilibrium steady 1054 00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:21,680 state density 1055 00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:25,440 whose dynamics or flows must have this 1056 00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:26,400 property 1057 00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:29,839 that the internal states and the 1058 00:38:35,190 --> 00:38:32,320 the active part of the blanket states 1059 00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:35,200 must be performing a gradient flow 1060 00:38:40,310 --> 00:38:38,400 on this self-information and then 1061 00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:40,320 you make a further move and say well 1062 00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:42,000 this self-information 1063 00:38:46,150 --> 00:38:44,000 can be written down as a free energy 1064 00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:46,160 functional well the free energy 1065 00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,280 if i interpret the internal states 1066 00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:52,079 as encoding bayesian beliefs or 1067 00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:53,920 probabilistic beliefs 1068 00:39:00,069 --> 00:38:56,960 about the external states so now you 1069 00:39:03,349 --> 00:39:00,079 have a mathematical image or a picture 1070 00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,359 of existential dynamics 1071 00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,320 that inherit from having a markov 1072 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:08,160 blanket where you can say 1073 00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:10,880 that the dynamics of the internal states 1074 00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:12,079 look as if 1075 00:39:17,190 --> 00:39:15,280 they're trying to maximize their model 1076 00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,200 evidence or trying to minimize 1077 00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,920 uh their free energy or prediction error 1078 00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:21,839 and that's basically the story 1079 00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:24,480 so a story that rests really upon what 1080 00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:26,400 physicists will understand as dynamics 1081 00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:26,800 and 1082 00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:29,280 average flow at non-equilibrium steady 1083 00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:30,560 state 1084 00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:33,760 and in particular the gradient flows 1085 00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:36,000 so perhaps it would demystify this to 1086 00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:37,200 say that 1087 00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:39,040 and coming back to helmholtz it was a 1088 00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:41,040 key architecture these ideas on the 1089 00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:44,160 low road to describing um 1090 00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,359 so um what you're what 1091 00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:48,880 among the many things that helmholtz 1092 00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:50,400 brought to the table was you can always 1093 00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:51,760 decompose 1094 00:39:57,109 --> 00:39:54,160 the flow for example let's take the flow 1095 00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:00,150 into two parts there's one that's 1096 00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,280 flowing up or down 1097 00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:05,440 gradients say concentration gradients 1098 00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:06,960 and there's another 1099 00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:11,200 circular flow which flows around the iso 1100 00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:13,760 probability contours or the iso gradient 1101 00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:14,480 uh the 1102 00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:17,599 the iso contours of of any uh of any 1103 00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:18,560 function 1104 00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:20,000 so what we're talking about is the 1105 00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:21,599 gradient flow part of it 1106 00:40:26,390 --> 00:40:24,000 not the solenoidal which is the other 1107 00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:26,400 circular part of the flow that 1108 00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,760 we were previously talking about in 1109 00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,760 terms of um 1110 00:40:33,430 --> 00:40:31,520 defining non-equilibrium as opposed to 1111 00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:33,440 equilibrium systems 1112 00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:37,440 and you know that gradient flow then 1113 00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:41,440 can be now read as a gradient flow 1114 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:44,640 on a variational free energy um 1115 00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:46,480 which is wonderful from the point of 1116 00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:48,640 view of people like me in neuroscience 1117 00:40:51,870 --> 00:40:49,280 because 1118 00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:51,880 now what you've got is a description of 1119 00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:53,280 neurodynamics 1120 00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:55,520 so you've got now a first principle 1121 00:41:00,710 --> 00:40:56,560 account 1122 00:41:02,870 --> 00:41:00,720 of how neuronal activity or states 1123 00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:02,880 change as a function of their state over 1124 00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,079 time and 1125 00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:05,599 you can write that down now as a 1126 00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:07,760 gradient flow on this one 1127 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:10,400 quantity this variation free energy that 1128 00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:12,640 endows that gradient flow there's 1129 00:41:20,069 --> 00:41:16,319 that dynamics um with an interpretation 1130 00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:20,079 that they're trying to maximize 1131 00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:23,520 the evidence for their model internally 1132 00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:29,829 okay let's zoom out and we see in your 1133 00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,520 model most of the time when you're 1134 00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:32,960 presenting with the powerpoint slides i 1135 00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:34,960 see nodes and then they have arrows 1136 00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:36,720 and so the nodes are connected with 1137 00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:38,560 different arrows and then that's what 1138 00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,880 affords a markov blanket 1139 00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:42,400 i have a couple questions the arrows 1140 00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:44,000 represent influence 1141 00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:46,400 which to me is a synonym for causation 1142 00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:48,560 so i'm wondering is causation necessary 1143 00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,520 for 1144 00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,520 this model because some people argue 1145 00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:52,960 that causation is an illusion 1146 00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:55,680 so for example sean carroll may say that 1147 00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:56,000 and 1148 00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:58,800 i'm well first of all let's tackle that 1149 00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:01,440 does your model presuppose causation 1150 00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:05,119 um yeah in a deflationary sense yes 1151 00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:08,960 um so inflationary yes so 1152 00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:12,079 in in the sense uh you know 1153 00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:14,319 i i i'm not quite sure what sean has 1154 00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:16,000 said but i will i want to agree with it 1155 00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:16,800 with what what 1156 00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,680 whatever you said um so this is a very 1157 00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:21,280 trivial causation that 1158 00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:24,000 that is implicit when you write down any 1159 00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:25,920 random differential equation or 1160 00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:27,760 stochastic differential equation or 1161 00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:29,440 longevity expression 1162 00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:32,720 if you just write down a universe 1163 00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:35,440 in which there are states that change 1164 00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:36,480 with time 1165 00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:39,040 as a function of those states plus say 1166 00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:41,040 some random fluctuations to make it a 1167 00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:41,920 random 1168 00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:44,319 or a stochastic differential equation 1169 00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:45,520 then what you are saying 1170 00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,640 is that the flow of 1171 00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,800 those states the rate of change of those 1172 00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,280 states is caused by those states 1173 00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:55,440 that's the only causality that is in 1174 00:42:58,630 --> 00:42:56,319 play here 1175 00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:58,640 so it's its causality of a rather sort 1176 00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,599 of um 1177 00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,839 elemental and trivial sort that that i 1178 00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:03,839 have to refer to also i normally but 1179 00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:06,960 people often refer to as um uh causality 1180 00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:08,800 in a controlled theoretic sense that the 1181 00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,440 system 1182 00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:11,440 is causal in the sense that there is 1183 00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:13,520 just motion or dynamics that is caused 1184 00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:14,160 by 1185 00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:19,200 inherits just from writing down 1186 00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,560 differential equations 1187 00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:22,880 that interestingly are only expressed in 1188 00:43:25,990 --> 00:43:25,520 motion over time so there's a deep link 1189 00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,000 betw 1190 00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:29,359 behind this trivial causality and time 1191 00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:31,440 uh because you're just writing down a 1192 00:43:34,630 --> 00:43:32,640 differential equation 1193 00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:34,640 after that there's no causality there's 1194 00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:35,920 nothing else after that 1195 00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:39,280 um the the sort of the causal inference 1196 00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:40,240 that the 1197 00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:43,280 the sort of um that 1198 00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,040 um would be of the kind uh say that 1199 00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:49,200 people like pearl in his causal 1200 00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:50,880 mechanics talk about 1201 00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,000 um i think that's much more um a 1202 00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:56,160 product of inference but you'd have to 1203 00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,839 actually work right up through the free 1204 00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:00,000 energy principle with you know 1205 00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:02,240 you know to actually understand what it 1206 00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:04,720 means just to 1207 00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:07,920 measure things you know let alone have 1208 00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:09,119 ideas about 1209 00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:12,640 do did this a cause be you know you 1210 00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:13,920 first of all got to even 1211 00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,400 uh you know um work out how would you 1212 00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:18,480 measure how you infer the existence of 1213 00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,160 a out there and b out there so you know 1214 00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:24,319 the free energy principle starts at a 1215 00:44:28,470 --> 00:44:25,920 very very low level and then 1216 00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:28,480 the baby steps works up to higher order 1217 00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:30,800 notions of things like causality 1218 00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:32,480 does that answer your question about the 1219 00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:34,240 the other 1220 00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:35,760 yeah does time always have to be the 1221 00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:38,000 parameter or can it be something else 1222 00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:40,640 because then it presupposes time as well 1223 00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:42,079 yeah 1224 00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:50,079 because you can generalize that you know 1225 00:44:54,550 --> 00:44:51,839 just treat time as another another 1226 00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:54,560 another coordinate if if you wanted to i 1227 00:45:25,270 --> 00:44:54,960 i 1228 00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:25,280 you keep connected 1229 00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,400 to um 1230 00:45:32,790 --> 00:45:31,119 useful things of the sort that do rest 1231 00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:32,800 upon dynamics 1232 00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,240 um you know if you if you so don't keep 1233 00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:39,280 if you don't treat time as a special if 1234 00:45:43,829 --> 00:45:40,240 you like coordinate 1235 00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:43,839 or um aspect of some 1236 00:45:50,150 --> 00:45:47,040 of some space um then 1237 00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,160 you know um it it's 1238 00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,000 less easy in a straightforward way to 1239 00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:54,000 connect to things like entropy 1240 00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:54,800 production 1241 00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:57,200 or um even things like sort of 1242 00:46:01,510 --> 00:45:58,160 information entropy 1243 00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:01,520 information then in dynamical systems 1244 00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:04,800 so i personally do you know 1245 00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:08,400 time starts off with a privileged um 1246 00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,880 position in the formulation in the sense 1247 00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:12,640 that it underwrites 1248 00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,319 the meaning of a differential equation 1249 00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:18,079 do you see that as then meaning that the 1250 00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:20,000 free energy principle as it's currently 1251 00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:20,880 formulated 1252 00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:22,880 is incomplete in some manner given 1253 00:46:26,950 --> 00:46:24,560 special relativity let's say that or 1254 00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:26,960 any relativity says that time and space 1255 00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:28,560 must be on some equal footing and if 1256 00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,520 you're 1257 00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:31,440 saying that time has some privileged 1258 00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:33,119 position then well position needs to 1259 00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:34,079 have a 1260 00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:37,280 an equally privileged position right 1261 00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,520 yeah that question is above my pay grade 1262 00:46:50,230 --> 00:46:43,680 i personally don't know you can easily 1263 00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:53,829 dynamics or mechanics 1264 00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:57,440 out of a longevan formulation 1265 00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:00,640 that has time bait into the very core 1266 00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:02,160 of it you know at the beginning with 1267 00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:03,680 just right now the launch on you can 1268 00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,200 work the whole way thing 1269 00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:08,240 the whole density dynamics up um 1270 00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:10,160 and at non-equilibrium steady state you 1271 00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:11,680 can write down quite you know 1272 00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:14,960 a simple potential function that 1273 00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:18,000 describes general relativity um so i 1274 00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:19,119 don't think there's no i didn't know 1275 00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:19,920 that 1276 00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,520 okay because when i was looking at some 1277 00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:23,520 of your notes i know you call it the 1278 00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:24,240 launch van 1279 00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:26,240 equation i can never pronounce that so i 1280 00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:27,599 always called it the kalman 1281 00:47:30,790 --> 00:47:29,119 forward equation for some reason that's 1282 00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,800 easier for me but whatever 1283 00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,319 the launch man is that correct launch 1284 00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:34,559 fan yeah so that's how i say it anyway 1285 00:47:36,829 --> 00:47:34,960 yes 1286 00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:36,839 okay well let's just say like that for 1287 00:47:40,630 --> 00:47:38,400 now 1288 00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:40,640 yes right okay so the launch van 1289 00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:42,319 equation 1290 00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:45,040 it can it can imply newtonian mechanics 1291 00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:46,319 i saw that you were showing that in one 1292 00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:47,599 of your slides as well as quantum 1293 00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:48,480 mechanics 1294 00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:52,000 as well as some aspect of thermodynamics 1295 00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:53,760 and then i forgot the fourth one but 1296 00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,520 then i didn't see special relativity or 1297 00:47:58,390 --> 00:47:57,119 non-relativistic quantum mechanics 1298 00:47:59,430 --> 00:47:58,400 you're saying that you can tweak some of 1299 00:48:02,710 --> 00:47:59,440 the parameters to derive 1300 00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:02,720 general relativity yep um and it all 1301 00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,640 rests upon the way that you configure 1302 00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:06,000 the um 1303 00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:12,240 have the dissipative um the lender 1304 00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:14,079 system and dissipative aspect 1305 00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,079 um versus the um solenoidal flows the 1306 00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:20,640 that characterize more conservative 1307 00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:21,280 systems so 1308 00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,200 when we're talking about special sorry 1309 00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:25,280 general relativity for example 1310 00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:29,280 excuse me um we're almost um 1311 00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:30,800 considering the limiting case where the 1312 00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:33,359 random fluctuations are attenuated by 1313 00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:34,319 being averaged away 1314 00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:35,359 we're talking about sort of massive 1315 00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:37,680 bodies um moving around so 1316 00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:39,680 it's just a question of of looking at 1317 00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:41,599 the various functional forms 1318 00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:44,079 you would get out of the solution to the 1319 00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:46,480 common growth forward equation 1320 00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:49,280 under the limit that gamma is is is um 1321 00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:50,400 is very very sorry 1322 00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:52,240 the amplitude the random fluctuations is 1323 00:48:57,910 --> 00:48:54,720 very very small so the gradient flows 1324 00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,920 almost disappear um so then it's just a 1325 00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:59,359 question look at the functional forms 1326 00:49:02,790 --> 00:49:01,119 and with a few nonlinearities here and 1327 00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:02,800 there you can you can quite you can 1328 00:49:07,589 --> 00:49:04,319 quite you can quite easily 1329 00:49:10,549 --> 00:49:07,599 uh write down something that that the uh 1330 00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:10,559 general you know relativity we will be 1331 00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:12,079 quite comfortable with 1332 00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:13,760 there are some interesting twists here 1333 00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:16,079 but you know if you start putting back 1334 00:49:20,069 --> 00:49:19,200 the random fluctuations into the so 1335 00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:20,079 general 1336 00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:23,839 solution um to um 1337 00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:26,559 the um the focal point equation or the 1338 00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:27,200 uh 1339 00:49:31,910 --> 00:49:30,480 the kamalgr forward equation um and 1340 00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,920 sorry just for the people listening the 1341 00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:33,680 focker planck equation and then the 1342 00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:35,599 launch van equation and the kolmogorov 1343 00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:38,720 forward equation are all synonyms 1344 00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:41,280 yes or the special cases of one another 1345 00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,240 yeah well 1346 00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:44,640 the launchvan equation is is just the 1347 00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:45,680 the underlying 1348 00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:48,880 uh equation that describes the the 1349 00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,960 the flow of the system as a function of 1350 00:49:54,549 --> 00:49:52,319 the states 1351 00:49:56,710 --> 00:49:54,559 but if you if you know that and you know 1352 00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:56,720 the amplitude of any random fluctuations 1353 00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:58,079 on that flow 1354 00:50:01,270 --> 00:50:00,480 then you can do you can equivalently 1355 00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:01,280 write that down 1356 00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:03,040 as a focal planck equation or a whole 1357 00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:04,640 molecular forward equation 1358 00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,880 i should also say incidentally you can 1359 00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:08,240 also write it down 1360 00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:10,160 equivalently in terms of a path integral 1361 00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,359 formulation 1362 00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:13,760 all of these could be um thought of as 1363 00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:15,440 different ways of just articulating the 1364 00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:16,400 same thing 1365 00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,359 um so but the density dynamics most 1366 00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,359 transparently inherits from the 1367 00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:23,440 you know from the uh the focal plank or 1368 00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:24,800 the common graph 1369 00:50:28,309 --> 00:50:27,040 formulation which is explicitly about 1370 00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:28,319 how the probabilities 1371 00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:31,839 over the states um evolve over time 1372 00:50:35,190 --> 00:50:34,000 so one example of that would be this the 1373 00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,200 time independent 1374 00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:37,760 scrolling a wave equation um you know 1375 00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,319 which is 1376 00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,960 you know one version of a vodka plank 1377 00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:42,400 equation 1378 00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:45,200 what they have in common is describing 1379 00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:46,319 the dynamics 1380 00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:49,839 of um of systems um 1381 00:50:54,870 --> 00:50:52,800 uh in terms of uh the probability 1382 00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:54,880 density over the states 1383 00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,720 or if you need quantum mechanics over 1384 00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:58,319 the other sort of the 1385 00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:01,359 um i would say the wave function of 1386 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:02,319 states 1387 00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:06,240 um so at steady state 1388 00:51:09,510 --> 00:51:08,240 um if i really need to go to steady 1389 00:51:13,030 --> 00:51:09,520 state but certainly 1390 00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:13,040 once you've written down um the 1391 00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:16,160 the foca planck equation um and 1392 00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:18,880 solved it for uh the flow and then use 1393 00:51:23,589 --> 00:51:20,800 the helmholtz decomposition 1394 00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:23,599 to split the contributions to flow into 1395 00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:25,040 the solenoidal and 1396 00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,559 gradient flow parts then that provides 1397 00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:30,720 sort of a nice way of looking at 1398 00:51:36,309 --> 00:51:32,640 limiting cases so 1399 00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:36,319 the the gradient flow is realized by 1400 00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:39,119 the random fluctuations so that you know 1401 00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:39,520 for 1402 00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:44,319 i often use the following analogy that 1403 00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:47,119 you know imagine that i placed a drop of 1404 00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:47,839 ink 1405 00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,040 in a cup of water um and 1406 00:51:57,349 --> 00:51:54,160 the ink for dissipative systems um 1407 00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,359 or your dissipative ink would disperse 1408 00:52:02,630 --> 00:51:59,280 itself throughout the solvent as a 1409 00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:02,640 random molecular uh fluctuations um 1410 00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:05,040 cause the ink molecules to diffuse down 1411 00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:06,480 concentration gradients 1412 00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:09,119 until you had you know a maximum entropy 1413 00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:09,920 dissipated 1414 00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:13,359 dissolved um um uh 1415 00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:15,680 uh sort of uh equilibrium within the 1416 00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:17,280 sort of the heat bath or 1417 00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:19,359 or the bound is supplied supplied by the 1418 00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:20,400 glass 1419 00:52:24,470 --> 00:52:22,079 that's not the kind of system that we're 1420 00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:24,480 interested in that's a 20th century 1421 00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:26,480 sort of equilibrium physics what we're 1422 00:52:30,549 --> 00:52:28,800 interested in is special kinds of ink 1423 00:52:32,950 --> 00:52:30,559 that seems to gather themselves up again 1424 00:52:36,870 --> 00:52:32,960 into a little globule 1425 00:52:37,270 --> 00:52:36,880 and that gathering up in the context of 1426 00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:37,280 sir 1427 00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:40,319 you stirring the uh stirring the the 1428 00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:41,760 glass of water 1429 00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:45,040 um can always be written down in accord 1430 00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:46,000 with the 1431 00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:48,880 helmholtz decomposition into two kinds 1432 00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:49,680 of flow 1433 00:52:56,069 --> 00:52:54,079 gradients 1434 00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:56,079 so it's this is the gradient flow i was 1435 00:52:59,109 --> 00:52:57,760 talking about so the molecules are 1436 00:53:01,670 --> 00:52:59,119 gathering themselves 1437 00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:01,680 together paradoxically if you like 1438 00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:03,200 looking as if they're flowing 1439 00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:05,599 towards each other or to the highest 1440 00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,000 concentration the highest 1441 00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:10,160 probabilities or log probabilities and 1442 00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:11,680 it's that it's that 1443 00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:16,079 gradient flow that is um responsible for 1444 00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:19,839 this self-assembly this sort of um 1445 00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:22,319 the uh the emergence of this attracting 1446 00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:22,880 set 1447 00:53:26,630 --> 00:53:24,720 of a small number of states that i i 1448 00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:26,640 keep visiting and then the solenoidal 1449 00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:27,359 flow 1450 00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,599 um around the ice the constant you know 1451 00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:35,520 in this instance the concentration 1452 00:53:41,829 --> 00:53:38,800 um profile the i 1453 00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:41,839 the iso concentration lines whereas the 1454 00:53:46,549 --> 00:53:44,720 gradient flow is is going to the 1455 00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:46,559 you know the maximum concentration or 1456 00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,040 the maximum probability density 1457 00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,520 so that's non-equilibrium steady state 1458 00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:53,520 crucially 1459 00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:56,640 that gradient flow is exactly balancing 1460 00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:57,680 the dispersion 1461 00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:01,040 due to the random fluctuations so 1462 00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:05,119 put that another way the gradient flow 1463 00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:07,359 that keeps things glued together as it 1464 00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,480 were that keeps things 1465 00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,800 pointing towards that attracting set 1466 00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:13,200 that pullback attractor that 1467 00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:15,280 states that have a high non-equilibrium 1468 00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:16,400 state 1469 00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:20,160 density is exactly offsetting the 1470 00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:22,480 dispersive dissipative 1471 00:54:26,790 --> 00:54:24,960 effects of the random fluctuations which 1472 00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:26,800 means that the random fluctuations 1473 00:54:31,670 --> 00:54:28,800 realize the gradient flow 1474 00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:31,680 so you have to have random fluctuations 1475 00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:32,800 before 1476 00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:35,040 you can have at non-equilibrium steady 1477 00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:35,920 state 1478 00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:39,040 the gradient flow so what would happen 1479 00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:42,000 if you took them away well what would 1480 00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:43,520 happen is there will be no gradient 1481 00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:44,160 flows 1482 00:54:47,430 --> 00:54:45,920 and things would just have solenoidal 1483 00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:47,440 orbits and then we have 1484 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:50,720 basically lagrangian mechanics we have 1485 00:54:56,470 --> 00:54:53,920 you know a mechanics app for describing 1486 00:54:57,670 --> 00:54:56,480 large bodies heavenly bodies moons and 1487 00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:57,680 earths and the like 1488 00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:59,920 all they can do is move around in 1489 00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,880 circles 1490 00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:03,520 so they've just got solenoidal flow 1491 00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:04,480 that's because there 1492 00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:06,480 aren't all the random fluctuations are 1493 00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:08,079 averaged away so they're effectively 1494 00:55:12,309 --> 00:55:10,000 zero so they can't realize 1495 00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:12,319 the gradient flows so they don't fall 1496 00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,520 towards each other 1497 00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:15,680 you know with you know with a suitable 1498 00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:16,960 potential energy 1499 00:55:21,990 --> 00:55:20,000 um that would define the you know 1500 00:55:23,270 --> 00:55:22,000 the gradient flows or the form of that 1501 00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:23,280 non-equilibrium 1502 00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:25,280 density on the other hand you could say 1503 00:55:28,950 --> 00:55:26,559 well no i'm 1504 00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:28,960 more interested in systems um that are 1505 00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:30,400 hot and fast 1506 00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:33,680 really fast like so quantum fast 1507 00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:35,440 where the solenoidal pit can be ignored 1508 00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:37,599 i'm just going to focus in on the 1509 00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:39,920 on the random fluctuations or the the 1510 00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:42,160 impact of those on the density dynamics 1511 00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:44,319 and then you can ignore the solenoidal 1512 00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:45,680 flow we return 1513 00:55:49,349 --> 00:55:47,599 to systems that detail balance and we 1514 00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:49,359 can um 1515 00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:52,559 um write down certain you know all 1516 00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:55,839 all our favorite thermodynamic laws um 1517 00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:57,760 you know and derive all the integral 1518 00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:59,760 fluctuation theorems that underwrite 1519 00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:00,960 generalizations 1520 00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:04,319 of those laws so you know from that 1521 00:56:08,309 --> 00:56:06,720 perspective classical mechanics where 1522 00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:08,319 general relativity might live for 1523 00:56:12,390 --> 00:56:10,160 example um 1524 00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:12,400 lives at one end of the spectrum very 1525 00:56:16,470 --> 00:56:13,920 large cold 1526 00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:16,480 no random fluctuations and then quantum 1527 00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:17,760 mechanics lives 1528 00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:20,559 um at the other end where it's dominated 1529 00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:20,960 by 1530 00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,960 random fluctuations very fast gradient 1531 00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:24,640 flows and in the middle 1532 00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:27,520 is where we live where we've got both 1533 00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:28,079 the 1534 00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:33,119 disorbiting for eternally 1535 00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:36,480 um so uh uh we're you know um 1536 00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:39,839 orbiting um some 1537 00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:43,200 uh you know some center committed 1538 00:56:49,349 --> 00:56:46,799 to uh a periodic orbit um 1539 00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:49,359 for the rest of our lives nor do we 1540 00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:50,640 dissipate or behave 1541 00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:53,599 you know in a sort of in a quantum way 1542 00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:55,520 but we're sort of halfway between 1543 00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:57,280 um we're at that that right sort of 1544 00:57:00,630 --> 00:56:58,880 scale where 1545 00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:00,640 there's lots of solenoidal there's lots 1546 00:57:04,870 --> 00:57:02,640 of oscillations that you know 1547 00:57:06,789 --> 00:57:04,880 that we we are exposed to imposed from a 1548 00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:06,799 larger scale such as tides 1549 00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:08,559 that we generate ourselves such as 1550 00:57:12,230 --> 00:57:10,559 oscillations in our hearts and our 1551 00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:12,240 physiology and our brains 1552 00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:14,960 um but at the same time we do have to 1553 00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:17,119 contend with the random fluctuations so 1554 00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:18,559 you know we spend a lot of our time 1555 00:57:21,270 --> 00:57:20,400 doing our gradient flows gathering 1556 00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:21,280 ourselves up 1557 00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:24,240 planning homeostasis keeping ourselves 1558 00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:24,559 in 1559 00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:37,040 talked about when he said that life 1560 00:57:41,589 --> 00:57:39,520 resists entropy in some way yeah i think 1561 00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:41,599 that's absolutely right um 1562 00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:49,270 that's exactly right so you know in the 1563 00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:50,319 presence of these 1564 00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,359 um for 1565 00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:56,000 for at equilibrium uh for you know 1566 00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:57,040 certainly enclosed 1567 00:58:03,109 --> 00:58:00,480 systems um that don't have um 1568 00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:03,119 um sort of low entropy pullback 1569 00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:04,160 attractors 1570 00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:06,960 um then you will get the second law you 1571 00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:08,720 know in the usual way 1572 00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:10,960 where all the random fluctuations 1573 00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,480 eventually dissipate you and hence you 1574 00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:14,480 get dissipative systems and dissipative 1575 00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,760 dynamics and yet somehow we we 1576 00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:19,680 in our existence we're in existence 1577 00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:21,440 proof that that's a violation of that 1578 00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:22,240 kind of 1579 00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:24,640 behavior um and that's basically where 1580 00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:26,000 the free energy principle starts it just 1581 00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:26,480 says 1582 00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:28,720 there are things out there that have to 1583 00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:29,680 be explained 1584 00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:33,680 that seem to resist the second law so um 1585 00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:35,760 framed in terms of negative neg entropy 1586 00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:37,040 uh there's an aspiration 1587 00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:40,640 right uh you know to frame it in terms 1588 00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:40,880 of 1589 00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:45,040 dissipation 1590 00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:47,200 um by this gathering up behavior and it 1591 00:58:51,430 --> 00:58:49,040 is those gradient flows 1592 00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:51,440 that are responsible when you just write 1593 00:58:54,069 --> 00:58:52,160 down the 1594 00:58:55,430 --> 00:58:54,079 the dynamics in terms of the helmholtz 1595 00:58:57,430 --> 00:58:55,440 decomposition 1596 00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:57,440 for providing that balance between the 1597 00:59:00,910 --> 00:58:58,880 dissipative effects of 1598 00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:00,920 random fluctuations and the 1599 00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:03,760 self-organizing 1600 00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:08,000 dynamics that exactly balance those 1601 00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:09,839 those dissipative effects to give you 1602 00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:11,040 this 1603 00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:16,000 professor when i was first researching 1604 00:59:21,190 --> 00:59:17,520 the free energy principle 1605 00:59:24,309 --> 00:59:21,200 i kept coming up to cautions 1606 00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:26,789 intellectually formidable it is and if 1607 00:59:30,870 --> 00:59:28,960 one was to just go by the 1608 00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:30,880 just the warning signs one would think 1609 00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:32,640 that it was more 1610 00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:35,040 abstruse than particle physics or 1611 00:59:38,950 --> 00:59:36,559 general relativity 1612 00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:38,960 and i'm curious why do you think it has 1613 00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:40,160 this 1614 00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:43,119 reputation here's an example when you 1615 00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:44,640 search general relativity or particle 1616 00:59:47,990 --> 00:59:46,240 physics or quantum field theory stand or 1617 00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:48,000 the standard model or any grand unified 1618 00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:48,400 theory 1619 00:59:51,510 --> 00:59:50,480 i don't think i've ever read a single 1620 00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,520 sentence except 1621 00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:53,599 on quantum mechanics that says this is a 1622 00:59:56,630 --> 00:59:55,040 difficult theory to understand 1623 00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,640 however on the wikipedia page for the 1624 01:00:01,430 --> 00:59:58,400 free energy principle it says this is 1625 01:00:02,330 --> 01:00:01,440 notoriously difficult to understand 1626 01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:02,340 yeah um 1627 01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:06,549 so i'm just trying to think of other 1628 01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:08,400 examples that um i'm not saying that 1629 01:00:10,789 --> 01:00:09,680 it's easy to understand in the least 1630 01:00:12,789 --> 01:00:10,799 what i'm wondering is 1631 01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:12,799 why do you think it has this reputation 1632 01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:14,079 i see yes 1633 01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:17,200 um well i think it's largely because 1634 01:00:21,190 --> 01:00:18,960 somebody slipped in that wikipedia 1635 01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,200 that sentence in wikipedia to be quite 1636 01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:23,040 so becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy 1637 01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:28,160 absolutely and it's entertaining um it's 1638 01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:31,119 yeah and of course it it it's um i mean 1639 01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:33,040 i know it's not as hard as 1640 01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:36,240 uh quantum physics and um and 1641 01:00:40,549 --> 01:00:38,960 um thermodynamics because i used to do 1642 01:00:42,789 --> 01:00:40,559 those and i can tell you the free energy 1643 01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:42,799 principle the maths is much simpler than 1644 01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:44,079 than quantum physics or general 1645 01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:47,440 relativity um it is much simpler 1646 01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:49,440 but it is mathematical but if you're 1647 01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,040 you're you're in dialogue with 1648 01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:53,440 psychologists who um don't do 1649 01:00:55,990 --> 01:00:55,359 mathematics then then there can be this 1650 01:00:58,230 --> 01:00:56,000 sort of 1651 01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:58,240 inflationary ratification of the ideas 1652 01:01:01,829 --> 01:00:59,520 and then there's a mystery 1653 01:01:03,430 --> 01:01:01,839 because you you don't see the simplicity 1654 01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:03,440 that is inherent in the 1655 01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:05,040 in the mathematical formulas and the 1656 01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:06,720 functional forms that you're dealing 1657 01:01:09,349 --> 01:01:07,359 with 1658 01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:09,359 um but i i quite like that i think it's 1659 01:01:14,470 --> 01:01:12,079 quite funny really 1660 01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:14,480 keep that in the wikipedia page okay so 1661 01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:16,160 the free energy principle do you see it 1662 01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:17,760 as being a potential 1663 01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:19,839 theory of everything first of all you 1664 01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:21,280 have to decide what are the dissiderada 1665 01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,720 of a theory of everything 1666 01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:25,520 but the way that i one of the reasons 1667 01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:27,040 i'm interested was from seeing that 1668 01:01:29,030 --> 01:01:27,599 slide 1669 01:01:31,030 --> 01:01:29,040 about the launch van equation or the 1670 01:01:33,190 --> 01:01:31,040 kalmac or whatever that equation 1671 01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:33,200 and seeing that it when you tweak the 1672 01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:34,640 parameters you can either generate 1673 01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:36,079 newtonian mechanics or general 1674 01:01:38,710 --> 01:01:37,200 relativity at least you're saying that 1675 01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:38,720 now i haven't seen that and quantum 1676 01:01:41,670 --> 01:01:39,920 mechanics and so on 1677 01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:41,680 so then that to me means it's a more 1678 01:01:45,030 --> 01:01:43,440 fundamental principle than those which 1679 01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:45,040 makes it a candidate for a theory of 1680 01:01:47,109 --> 01:01:45,599 everything 1681 01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:47,119 but then i just heard you say well 1682 01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:48,880 there's the quantum mechanical world 1683 01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:50,480 let's say high fluctuations then there's 1684 01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:52,000 low fluctuations of general we 1685 01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:54,240 live in the middle so then is the free 1686 01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:56,160 energy principle simply a principle of 1687 01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:56,720 the middle 1688 01:02:00,470 --> 01:01:58,880 and not the one that generates all three 1689 01:02:01,829 --> 01:02:00,480 or do you see it as being a theory of 1690 01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:01,839 everything itself 1691 01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:05,440 so that's a very good question um 1692 01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:07,280 which deserves two completely different 1693 01:02:10,870 --> 01:02:08,559 um answers 1694 01:02:12,630 --> 01:02:10,880 um i i think the thing that the free 1695 01:02:16,390 --> 01:02:12,640 energy principle brings to the table 1696 01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:18,630 is only licensed by the presence of a 1697 01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,799 markov blanket so basically 1698 01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:22,960 um the way i look at this is it's just 1699 01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:24,000 applying 1700 01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:27,039 box standard um 1701 01:02:31,510 --> 01:02:29,599 variational calculus of the kind that 1702 01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:31,520 people have been using for centuries 1703 01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:34,079 well not centuries but so in certain 1704 01:02:37,990 --> 01:02:34,799 schools 1705 01:02:41,270 --> 01:02:38,000 at the most right um um to you know 1706 01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:41,280 to to get at um formal 1707 01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:44,319 formulations of of of um 1708 01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:45,599 classical mechanics and quantum 1709 01:02:50,390 --> 01:02:48,319 mechanics and cisco mechanics or 1710 01:02:51,990 --> 01:02:50,400 strictly speaking stochastic mechanics 1711 01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:52,000 uh thermodynamics 1712 01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:55,760 um so you know it uses exactly the same 1713 01:03:00,230 --> 01:02:58,000 maths the only thing that's special 1714 01:03:01,190 --> 01:03:00,240 about it is that it applies that math in 1715 01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:01,200 the context of 1716 01:03:05,029 --> 01:03:04,240 a marco a markov blanket or a particular 1717 01:03:07,670 --> 01:03:05,039 partition 1718 01:03:08,549 --> 01:03:07,680 into inside and outside and separated by 1719 01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:08,559 blanket states 1720 01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:10,160 that's the only thing that it brings to 1721 01:03:14,950 --> 01:03:11,920 the table and in 1722 01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:14,960 in that sense if you allow 1723 01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:18,160 me to interpret everything as 1724 01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,680 every space thing then thingness as 1725 01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:23,039 defined stipulatively 1726 01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:25,119 by a markov blanket that allows you to 1727 01:03:29,190 --> 01:03:26,319 demarcate 1728 01:03:30,069 --> 01:03:29,200 a thing from not thing it is certainly a 1729 01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:30,079 theory of everything 1730 01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:32,480 by definition but in a very deflationary 1731 01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:33,200 way 1732 01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:34,880 right right now when you say 1733 01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:36,720 deflationary see to me the way that you 1734 01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:38,240 use it 1735 01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:39,760 is different than how you described it 1736 01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:41,359 unless i'm misunderstanding it the way 1737 01:03:45,750 --> 01:03:43,200 that i hear you using the term is 1738 01:03:47,190 --> 01:03:45,760 like there are concepts that we have a 1739 01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:47,200 colloquial understanding is to its 1740 01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:47,920 connotations 1741 01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:49,520 but you use it in such an abstract 1742 01:03:52,870 --> 01:03:51,039 manner that it 1743 01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,880 coincides with the colloquial only 1744 01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:54,319 seldomly and so 1745 01:03:57,430 --> 01:03:55,920 we shouldn't take it too seriously for 1746 01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:57,440 example when someone says surprise 1747 01:04:00,710 --> 01:03:58,960 it doesn't or belief it doesn't mean 1748 01:04:01,990 --> 01:04:00,720 that that atom has a belief that's the 1749 01:04:03,829 --> 01:04:02,000 way that i understand deflation am i 1750 01:04:07,190 --> 01:04:03,839 misunderstanding deflationary no 1751 01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:07,200 well well not at all no you're certainly 1752 01:04:11,029 --> 01:04:09,359 understanding my use of the word but 1753 01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:11,039 it is quite likely that i'm using the 1754 01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:14,000 word uh i i'm abusing the word or at 1755 01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:14,319 least 1756 01:04:17,430 --> 01:04:16,559 misusing it but that's exactly what i 1757 01:04:19,990 --> 01:04:17,440 meant yes 1758 01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,000 yeah and so it is it's getting under the 1759 01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:22,079 hood and i'm not reifying and not 1760 01:04:26,069 --> 01:04:23,280 associating 1761 01:04:27,750 --> 01:04:26,079 all the psychological interpretations so 1762 01:04:29,109 --> 01:04:27,760 you know i i get that a lot i have to 1763 01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:29,119 suddenly pause and say 1764 01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:31,359 when i say amazing belief i of course do 1765 01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:33,119 not mean something you can talk about 1766 01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:34,799 that you have a conviction about 1767 01:04:37,829 --> 01:04:36,240 these these are just conditional 1768 01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:37,839 probability distributions 1769 01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:40,720 um so know you you always have to sort 1770 01:04:43,349 --> 01:04:41,760 of say look we're talking about 1771 01:04:45,589 --> 01:04:43,359 something much simpler here 1772 01:04:47,430 --> 01:04:45,599 than you might think um and i think that 1773 01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:47,440 may in part be an explanation as why 1774 01:04:49,670 --> 01:04:48,000 people 1775 01:04:51,430 --> 01:04:49,680 think that the free energy principle is 1776 01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:51,440 difficult to understand it's not 1777 01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,359 it's just they think it is because 1778 01:04:57,589 --> 01:04:54,799 they're um 1779 01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:57,599 they're reading it using um folk 1780 01:05:02,150 --> 01:04:58,559 psychological 1781 01:05:04,950 --> 01:05:02,160 or uh possibly from my point of view 1782 01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:04,960 over rarefying verifying refining the 1783 01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:06,000 mathematics 1784 01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:08,640 i see i see when i first started 1785 01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:10,079 learning free energy principle when i 1786 01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:11,200 first started learning it 1787 01:05:16,150 --> 01:05:13,920 what struck me was its connection to 1788 01:05:17,349 --> 01:05:16,160 disparate fields so biology physics 1789 01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:17,359 machine learning and so on and it 1790 01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:18,240 reminded me of 1791 01:05:21,670 --> 01:05:20,079 in mathematics there's modular forms 1792 01:05:24,309 --> 01:05:21,680 which keep coming up over and over 1793 01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:24,319 and there are problems which previously 1794 01:05:27,190 --> 01:05:25,839 were intractable that when you recast 1795 01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:27,200 them in terms of modular forms they 1796 01:05:29,910 --> 01:05:27,839 become 1797 01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:29,920 easier to solve do you mind listing some 1798 01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:31,359 of the 1799 01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:34,799 principle that 1800 01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:37,680 let's say reformulates previously 1801 01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:38,640 convoluted 1802 01:05:43,829 --> 01:05:42,160 complex problems into something more 1803 01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:43,839 simple and the different fields maybe i 1804 01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:46,000 can even when i'm editing this maybe 1805 01:05:49,829 --> 01:05:47,920 i'll even list like 1806 01:05:51,270 --> 01:05:49,839 physics and then here's how it helps 1807 01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,280 physics here's how it helps biology 1808 01:05:54,789 --> 01:05:52,640 here's how it helps machine learning so 1809 01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:54,799 do you mind going through a couple 1810 01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:57,440 examples you can go through this quickly 1811 01:05:59,270 --> 01:05:58,720 because i'm sure you've done this many 1812 01:06:01,750 --> 01:05:59,280 times 1813 01:06:03,270 --> 01:06:01,760 and i'm mainly interested in a list well 1814 01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:03,280 no that's a very interesting question no 1815 01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:06,559 no i haven't um so but you're absolutely 1816 01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:07,280 right so 1817 01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:10,000 you know the theory of everythingness 1818 01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:10,640 which is 1819 01:06:13,750 --> 01:06:12,720 you know i use in a rather cheaty way to 1820 01:06:15,670 --> 01:06:13,760 interpret every 1821 01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:15,680 thing and its thingness which is the 1822 01:06:22,950 --> 01:06:19,839 theory um 1823 01:06:24,950 --> 01:06:22,960 is also i think claimed by 1824 01:06:26,549 --> 01:06:24,960 this uh the free energy principle in the 1825 01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:26,559 sense you're you're 1826 01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:28,640 you're you're hinting out that it 1827 01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:31,440 provides an explanatory framework 1828 01:06:36,789 --> 01:06:34,559 although albeit deflationary for many 1829 01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:36,799 different disciplines 1830 01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:40,079 and you see that um in terms 1831 01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:43,680 of it really being the underlying maths 1832 01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:47,359 behind all kinds of explanations for 1833 01:06:54,230 --> 01:06:50,480 um behavior 1834 01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:54,240 of a purposeful or systematic sort so 1835 01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:57,839 for example you can interpret the um 1836 01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,640 this this quantity either cast as a 1837 01:07:03,910 --> 01:07:02,160 variation free energy 1838 01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:03,920 or the thing that it provides an 1839 01:07:06,549 --> 01:07:06,000 approximation to or abound on which is 1840 01:07:09,750 --> 01:07:06,559 the 1841 01:07:11,270 --> 01:07:09,760 attracting states 1842 01:07:13,109 --> 01:07:11,280 you can interpret that in many different 1843 01:07:15,510 --> 01:07:13,119 ways and you spin off 1844 01:07:18,069 --> 01:07:15,520 different kinds of approaches in the 1845 01:07:20,309 --> 01:07:18,079 life sciences and the physical sciences 1846 01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:20,319 that suddenly are seen as just different 1847 01:07:22,710 --> 01:07:21,920 ways of expressing the same underlying 1848 01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:22,720 mechanics 1849 01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:25,599 so a particular instance here would be 1850 01:07:30,150 --> 01:07:26,960 interpreting 1851 01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:30,160 the um the free energy as a value 1852 01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:31,280 function 1853 01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:34,880 you can write down 1854 01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:37,680 reinforcement learning uh you can write 1855 01:07:40,789 --> 01:07:38,240 down 1856 01:07:42,390 --> 01:07:40,799 expected utility theory in economics you 1857 01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:42,400 can write down 1858 01:07:46,870 --> 01:07:44,880 optimal control theory in engineering so 1859 01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:46,880 all of these things have in common 1860 01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:49,440 the notion that you want to have 1861 01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,160 controlled 1862 01:07:54,230 --> 01:07:52,480 dynamics that optimize some loss 1863 01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:54,240 function but if the loss function 1864 01:07:57,829 --> 01:07:56,880 is is just the negative evidence or the 1865 01:08:00,230 --> 01:07:57,839 free energy 1866 01:08:01,589 --> 01:08:00,240 you've now got an explanation as to why 1867 01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:01,599 all of these takes on 1868 01:08:06,549 --> 01:08:04,160 interesting behaviors of the kind that 1869 01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:06,559 economists and behavioral psychologists 1870 01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:09,680 and control theoreticians study have to 1871 01:08:13,270 --> 01:08:11,440 that they're looking at they're looking 1872 01:08:13,829 --> 01:08:13,280 at exactly the right kind of dynamics 1873 01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:13,839 because 1874 01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:15,520 all of these systems have to possess 1875 01:08:20,309 --> 01:08:17,279 this fundamental property 1876 01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,319 and then you can you're not only um 1877 01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:22,799 if you like provide a unifying framework 1878 01:08:26,229 --> 01:08:24,640 that you can now start to understand 1879 01:08:28,229 --> 01:08:26,239 yeah well where does the bellman 1880 01:08:30,550 --> 01:08:28,239 optimality principle come from 1881 01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:30,560 well you can actually cast it as a 1882 01:08:33,910 --> 01:08:31,839 limiting case 1883 01:08:35,189 --> 01:08:33,920 of a principle of station reaction 1884 01:08:35,910 --> 01:08:35,199 hamilton's principle of stationary 1885 01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,920 action 1886 01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:37,920 when applied to a markov blanket which 1887 01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:39,520 is just the free energy principle so 1888 01:08:43,269 --> 01:08:41,759 if you wanted me to say you know in in 1889 01:08:43,749 --> 01:08:43,279 one sentence what is the free energy 1890 01:08:45,669 --> 01:08:43,759 principle 1891 01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:45,679 it is the application of hamilton's 1892 01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:47,120 principle of stationary action 1893 01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:50,319 to a markov blanket that's interesting 1894 01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,440 that's interesting 1895 01:08:54,789 --> 01:08:53,120 so yeah where do you get the bellman 1896 01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:54,799 optionality principle from well 1897 01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:56,880 if you take away lots of uncertainty 1898 01:09:01,430 --> 01:08:58,319 around um you know from 1899 01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:01,440 from the probabilistic um uh treatment 1900 01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:03,440 on offer from the free energy principle 1901 01:09:06,229 --> 01:09:04,880 you end up with about an automatic 1902 01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:06,239 principle 1903 01:09:09,430 --> 01:09:07,920 so that you know that provides a 1904 01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:09,440 unifying take on 1905 01:09:13,030 --> 01:09:12,000 things like basin decision theory when 1906 01:09:15,430 --> 01:09:13,040 you put the 1907 01:09:16,070 --> 01:09:15,440 uncertainty back in again you get 1908 01:09:17,910 --> 01:09:16,080 something 1909 01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:17,920 which is now a mixture of bayesian 1910 01:09:20,789 --> 01:09:20,000 decision theory and optimal bayesian 1911 01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:20,799 design 1912 01:09:24,309 --> 01:09:23,199 sometimes known as active learning in 1913 01:09:26,709 --> 01:09:24,319 machine learning 1914 01:09:28,149 --> 01:09:26,719 so now you have a principal first 1915 01:09:30,789 --> 01:09:28,159 principle account 1916 01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:30,799 of the so-called exploration 1917 01:09:33,910 --> 01:09:32,319 exploitation trade-off 1918 01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:33,920 which just dissolves in the free energy 1919 01:09:36,789 --> 01:09:35,600 principle you know the free energy has 1920 01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:36,799 two bits to it 1921 01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:40,000 um i won't go into the details but in 1922 01:09:45,110 --> 01:09:41,839 the same way that 1923 01:09:48,149 --> 01:09:45,120 a good statistician is always trying to 1924 01:09:50,470 --> 01:09:48,159 optimize the the evidence 1925 01:09:51,749 --> 01:09:50,480 the marginal likelihood of or the 1926 01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:51,759 evidence for 1927 01:09:55,669 --> 01:09:53,279 or the variation of free energy 1928 01:09:57,110 --> 01:09:55,679 associated with their model 1929 01:09:58,709 --> 01:09:57,120 they're just trying to provide an 1930 01:10:01,430 --> 01:09:58,719 accurate account 1931 01:10:03,030 --> 01:10:01,440 of the data at hand that is as simple or 1932 01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:03,040 minimally complex as possible 1933 01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,320 so we come back to algorithmic 1934 01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:06,960 complexity uh under the hood here 1935 01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:08,719 so in the same way you got this these 1936 01:10:13,590 --> 01:10:10,560 dual aspects to the good 1937 01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:13,600 inference again complying with occam's 1938 01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:14,159 principle 1939 01:10:21,030 --> 01:10:17,760 maximum entropy 1940 01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:21,040 applied to belief structures or um 1941 01:10:24,870 --> 01:10:23,520 posterior beliefs amazing beliefs you 1942 01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:24,880 you you've got this sort of 1943 01:10:32,149 --> 01:10:31,430 to what is a good inference which has 1944 01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:32,159 this sort of 1945 01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,760 accuracy on the one hand and the 1946 01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,520 complexity of on the other hand 1947 01:10:38,550 --> 01:10:37,520 and when you apply this in an inactive 1948 01:10:40,550 --> 01:10:38,560 setting when you have to 1949 01:10:41,910 --> 01:10:40,560 have to make moves and decisions and 1950 01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:41,920 consider um 1951 01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:44,880 not just um you know me as a sentient 1952 01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:46,000 organ absorbing 1953 01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:48,239 sensory states but i actually also act 1954 01:10:51,590 --> 01:10:49,920 and choose where to look 1955 01:10:53,990 --> 01:10:51,600 you get this dual aspect which is 1956 01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:54,000 basically expiration exploitation 1957 01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:55,679 i want to minimize surprise or 1958 01:10:59,110 --> 01:10:57,840 prediction errors by sampling those 1959 01:11:01,110 --> 01:10:59,120 things that i predict 1960 01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:01,120 i should sample like being warm and 1961 01:11:05,430 --> 01:11:02,880 happy and befriended 1962 01:11:07,510 --> 01:11:05,440 but at the same time there's also 1963 01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:07,520 another aspect which is this epistemic 1964 01:11:11,990 --> 01:11:08,320 aspect this 1965 01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:12,000 resolving uncertainty so if surprise 1966 01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:14,239 and specifically self-information 1967 01:11:17,750 --> 01:11:15,040 surprisal 1968 01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:17,760 if expected self-information is entropy 1969 01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:19,440 then expected surprise 1970 01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,560 is uncertainty so in minimizing surprise 1971 01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:24,000 and a minimizing 1972 01:11:28,709 --> 01:11:26,560 prediction error in expectation on 1973 01:11:31,830 --> 01:11:28,719 average under particular decisions 1974 01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:31,840 or choices i make i'm also compelled to 1975 01:11:35,990 --> 01:11:33,520 minimize my uncertainty 1976 01:11:36,870 --> 01:11:36,000 about the world out there generating my 1977 01:11:39,189 --> 01:11:36,880 sensations 1978 01:11:40,310 --> 01:11:39,199 so there's this epistemic part that 1979 01:11:42,790 --> 01:11:40,320 comes into play 1980 01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:42,800 which you know in the same way that the 1981 01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:44,719 um the accuracy 1982 01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:47,840 and the complexity and together to give 1983 01:11:50,950 --> 01:11:48,239 you 1984 01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:50,960 the model evidence or the free energy 1985 01:11:54,550 --> 01:11:52,080 these two sort of 1986 01:11:55,510 --> 01:11:54,560 exploration exp exploitation things just 1987 01:11:58,390 --> 01:11:55,520 add together 1988 01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:58,400 to give you the expected free energy so 1989 01:12:03,669 --> 01:12:00,080 that to my mind provides a 1990 01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:03,679 you know another example of the unifying 1991 01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:06,320 aspect where you can from a first 1992 01:12:10,149 --> 01:12:07,760 principle account 1993 01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:10,159 put together two seemingly completely 1994 01:12:13,830 --> 01:12:11,040 separate 1995 01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:13,840 strands of bayesian theorizing on the 1996 01:12:16,790 --> 01:12:14,719 one hand 1997 01:12:18,390 --> 01:12:16,800 bayesian decision theory which is all 1998 01:12:18,790 --> 01:12:18,400 about making the right decisions under 1999 01:12:21,990 --> 01:12:18,800 some 2000 01:12:25,510 --> 01:12:22,000 other hand good 2001 01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:25,520 experimental design um that you know 2002 01:12:28,870 --> 01:12:27,280 could be read as a sort of preparing 2003 01:12:29,990 --> 01:12:28,880 approach to the scientific process or 2004 01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:30,000 possibly beyond 2005 01:12:34,630 --> 01:12:31,679 but they're just two sides of the same 2006 01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:34,640 coin so that's a nice unification 2007 01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:38,320 that i repeat dissolves um 2008 01:12:41,350 --> 01:12:40,480 things that i see as living in the 20th 2009 01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:41,360 century like the 2010 01:12:44,630 --> 01:12:43,440 the exploration exploitation dilemma 2011 01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:44,640 there is no dilemma 2012 01:12:49,669 --> 01:12:46,320 it's just how precise are your 2013 01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:49,679 preferences that drive that sort of um 2014 01:12:52,870 --> 01:12:51,840 that's technically what is actually a 2015 01:12:55,990 --> 01:12:52,880 risk so the 2016 01:12:57,110 --> 01:12:56,000 the complexity when you take the average 2017 01:12:59,910 --> 01:12:57,120 complexity 2018 01:13:01,669 --> 01:12:59,920 of the free energy um under some 2019 01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:01,679 expected outcomes before you've actually 2020 01:13:04,870 --> 01:13:02,880 made a move on the world 2021 01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:04,880 that becomes a chao divergence between 2022 01:13:08,790 --> 01:13:06,960 what you anticipate will happen 2023 01:13:11,510 --> 01:13:08,800 and what a priori you expect to happen 2024 01:13:15,830 --> 01:13:11,520 so that's risk in economics and in 2025 01:13:17,590 --> 01:13:15,840 um in engineering um sometimes as kl 2026 01:13:19,110 --> 01:13:17,600 what does kl stand for in the divergence 2027 01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:19,120 sorry 2028 01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:22,159 callback libra which um 2029 01:13:27,110 --> 01:13:25,280 so it's just a it's a particular well it 2030 01:13:30,070 --> 01:13:27,120 is just a relative entropy 2031 01:13:31,350 --> 01:13:30,080 it's just some a measure of um in fact 2032 01:13:34,470 --> 01:13:31,360 it's not a measure 2033 01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:34,480 i should it's uh a way of 2034 01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:37,520 quantifying the divergence between two 2035 01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:39,679 uh probability distributions or it's a 2036 01:13:44,870 --> 01:13:42,080 measure in the deflationary sense 2037 01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:44,880 well actually no no that's that's very 2038 01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:45,520 clever 2039 01:13:48,630 --> 01:13:47,280 but technically wrong now the reason i 2040 01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:48,640 caught myself was 2041 01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:52,080 um the kl divergence between a 2042 01:13:56,470 --> 01:13:54,080 and b is not the same as between b and a 2043 01:13:56,950 --> 01:13:56,480 so it's not a metric measure which is 2044 01:13:59,270 --> 01:13:56,960 why 2045 01:14:01,030 --> 01:13:59,280 technically that's correct right um so 2046 01:14:01,510 --> 01:14:01,040 everything it's not a measure but it's 2047 01:14:04,550 --> 01:14:01,520 like 2048 01:14:05,990 --> 01:14:04,560 divergence so 2049 01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:06,000 okay it's just a relative entropy this 2050 01:14:11,430 --> 01:14:09,040 is a way of of quantifying 2051 01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:11,440 how much you you know if you read a 2052 01:14:16,390 --> 01:14:13,679 bayesian belief as a state of mind 2053 01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:16,400 how much have you changed your mind and 2054 01:14:20,550 --> 01:14:16,960 the key 2055 01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:20,560 thing um at the heart of 2056 01:14:24,149 --> 01:14:22,560 if you like applications of free energy 2057 01:14:25,830 --> 01:14:24,159 principle to 2058 01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:25,840 inference and active inference and 2059 01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:27,360 bayesian decision theory 2060 01:14:32,790 --> 01:14:30,560 and the like is the the divergence 2061 01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:32,800 between your beliefs before 2062 01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:34,640 seeing some sensory evidence and 2063 01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:35,920 afterwards 2064 01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:37,760 so if you're a bayesian statistician 2065 01:14:40,870 --> 01:14:39,040 this would be the kl 2066 01:14:42,870 --> 01:14:40,880 divergence between the prior and the 2067 01:14:45,510 --> 01:14:42,880 posterior literally 2068 01:14:46,149 --> 01:14:45,520 how much you've changed your mind or 2069 01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:46,159 moved 2070 01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:49,280 your beliefs in response to assimilating 2071 01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:52,159 some new data am i supposed to 2072 01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:53,760 understand surprise as 2073 01:14:57,669 --> 01:14:55,840 equivalent to a mismatch between what 2074 01:15:01,350 --> 01:14:57,679 you predict and what actually happens 2075 01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:01,360 so error right that's an excellent 2076 01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:04,239 is it more complex than that well it's 2077 01:15:07,990 --> 01:15:05,280 um 2078 01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:08,000 if you want to get into the nitty gritty 2079 01:15:11,910 --> 01:15:08,320 so 2080 01:15:14,070 --> 01:15:11,920 surprise read as surprisal is um 2081 01:15:15,510 --> 01:15:14,080 a very simple concept concept it's just 2082 01:15:18,390 --> 01:15:15,520 a self-information it's a 2083 01:15:19,030 --> 01:15:18,400 the negative log probability of some 2084 01:15:21,990 --> 01:15:19,040 outcome 2085 01:15:23,430 --> 01:15:22,000 uh usually as a sensory state of of your 2086 01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:23,440 markov blanket 2087 01:15:30,470 --> 01:15:26,640 so if something is highly improbable or 2088 01:15:31,430 --> 01:15:30,480 if the outcome or your sensory state say 2089 01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,440 your physiological 2090 01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,920 sensed physiological state is high 2091 01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,679 unlikely given what you are 2092 01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,520 so the usual example here is a fish out 2093 01:15:42,390 --> 01:15:39,600 of out of water for example 2094 01:15:43,990 --> 01:15:42,400 that that has a lot of surprise um it 2095 01:15:46,630 --> 01:15:44,000 just means it's just a you know 2096 01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:46,640 a euphemism for for self-information 2097 01:15:51,430 --> 01:15:48,000 that scores 2098 01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,440 the kinds of outcomes that um 2099 01:15:55,189 --> 01:15:53,520 would be characteristic of this 2100 01:15:58,070 --> 01:15:55,199 self-organizing system 2101 01:15:59,669 --> 01:15:58,080 so it's just a way of writing down um or 2102 01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:59,679 scoring the probability of being in this 2103 01:16:02,550 --> 01:16:00,159 state 2104 01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:02,560 if you're that kind of system or um 2105 01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:03,280 technically if 2106 01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:06,400 you're um you have that 2107 01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:10,400 that that kind of pullback attractor 2108 01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:12,719 there's another kind of surprise um 2109 01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,560 which is the bayesian surprise 2110 01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:16,800 which um is often confused with that 2111 01:16:20,709 --> 01:16:18,560 which is i think closer 2112 01:16:22,070 --> 01:16:20,719 um to the notion that we're just talking 2113 01:16:22,709 --> 01:16:22,080 about which is the degree to which 2114 01:16:24,390 --> 01:16:22,719 something 2115 01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:24,400 causes me to change my mind the 2116 01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:25,760 information gain 2117 01:16:32,950 --> 01:16:28,960 um which is the complexity so 2118 01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:32,960 the complexity basically when you 2119 01:16:37,030 --> 01:16:35,040 um if you're looking at this as a 2120 01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:37,040 statistician you're given some data 2121 01:16:41,110 --> 01:16:39,360 and you had some prior beliefs about 2122 01:16:42,229 --> 01:16:41,120 what caused those data before you saw 2123 01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:42,239 the data 2124 01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:46,000 and then you use bayes rule to combine 2125 01:16:49,270 --> 01:16:48,000 the likelihood of those of those data 2126 01:16:50,550 --> 01:16:49,280 given your beliefs about how they're 2127 01:16:53,669 --> 01:16:50,560 caused with your prize 2128 01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:53,679 you can't be the posterior so posterior 2129 01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:55,760 after seeing the data this is now your 2130 01:16:58,310 --> 01:16:57,120 belief so you start with your prior 2131 01:17:00,310 --> 01:16:58,320 belief and then you have your 2132 01:17:01,350 --> 01:17:00,320 posterior belief and then there's a 2133 01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:01,360 movement 2134 01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:05,600 that we're talking about 2135 01:17:09,189 --> 01:17:07,679 that scores the amount you've changed 2136 01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:09,199 your mind that just 2137 01:17:15,110 --> 01:17:13,040 is the complexity it's the complexity 2138 01:17:17,669 --> 01:17:15,120 cost that you have paid 2139 01:17:19,189 --> 01:17:17,679 for providing a more accurate account or 2140 01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:19,199 an accurate account of the data 2141 01:17:22,950 --> 01:17:21,120 that you've explained that has moved 2142 01:17:26,229 --> 01:17:22,960 your beliefs from priors 2143 01:17:29,430 --> 01:17:26,239 to to posteriors so it is the 2144 01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:29,440 the cost of 2145 01:17:35,830 --> 01:17:32,880 changing beliefs in order 2146 01:17:36,870 --> 01:17:35,840 to do belief updating on bayesian belief 2147 01:17:37,990 --> 01:17:36,880 updating 2148 01:17:39,430 --> 01:17:38,000 i'm going on about that because it's 2149 01:17:40,310 --> 01:17:39,440 really quite interesting though because 2150 01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:40,320 you know 2151 01:17:43,669 --> 01:17:42,480 via things like landauer's principle and 2152 01:17:46,709 --> 01:17:43,679 the 2153 01:17:49,830 --> 01:17:46,719 equality that degree of movement 2154 01:17:50,709 --> 01:17:49,840 costs thermodynamic energy so that tells 2155 01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:50,719 you 2156 01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:54,000 that a good artifact a good person 2157 01:18:01,350 --> 01:17:59,590 from the point of view of existential 2158 01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:01,360 goodness as scored by 2159 01:18:06,390 --> 01:18:03,920 minimizing free energy or maximizing 2160 01:18:08,790 --> 01:18:06,400 marginal likelihood or moral evidence 2161 01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:08,800 is the kind of personal computer or 2162 01:18:11,830 --> 01:18:10,080 artifact 2163 01:18:13,270 --> 01:18:11,840 that when confronted with some new 2164 01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:13,280 information 2165 01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,960 will actually process and assimilate 2166 01:18:17,990 --> 01:18:16,640 that in a really thermodynamically 2167 01:18:20,149 --> 01:18:18,000 efficient way 2168 01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:20,159 so they'll do it with a very cool brain 2169 01:18:22,790 --> 01:18:21,920 they won't use very much electricity or 2170 01:18:24,709 --> 01:18:22,800 food 2171 01:18:26,310 --> 01:18:24,719 and very little will change and what 2172 01:18:28,149 --> 01:18:26,320 that basically means is 2173 01:18:30,070 --> 01:18:28,159 their prior beliefs were already quite 2174 01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,080 close to the posterior beliefs 2175 01:18:33,510 --> 01:18:32,159 so they already had a good idea of 2176 01:18:34,950 --> 01:18:33,520 what's going on so they were not 2177 01:18:40,229 --> 01:18:34,960 surprised 2178 01:18:41,590 --> 01:18:40,239 trying to minimize that complexity cost 2179 01:18:44,070 --> 01:18:41,600 in in terms of 2180 01:18:46,390 --> 01:18:44,080 the price you have to pay for providing 2181 01:18:49,510 --> 01:18:46,400 an accurate account of some data 2182 01:18:52,790 --> 01:18:49,520 um your 2183 01:18:54,390 --> 01:18:52,800 you are you you are also maximizing the 2184 01:18:56,229 --> 01:18:54,400 efficiency of 2185 01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:56,239 of your belief updating so i think 2186 01:18:59,270 --> 01:18:57,520 that's quite a nice thing because what 2187 01:19:02,070 --> 01:18:59,280 it says if you're going to build 2188 01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:02,080 good artifacts good artificial general 2189 01:19:05,669 --> 01:19:03,120 intelligence 2190 01:19:06,870 --> 01:19:05,679 what you're looking for is a really 2191 01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:06,880 small 2192 01:19:10,630 --> 01:19:09,679 thing that can be powered with a battery 2193 01:19:11,910 --> 01:19:10,640 that's the one 2194 01:19:13,510 --> 01:19:11,920 that's the kind of thing that will do 2195 01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:13,520 the best kind of belief updating that's 2196 01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:14,800 very tailor-made 2197 01:19:18,390 --> 01:19:17,040 for the inference problem uh inference 2198 01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:18,400 problem at hand 2199 01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:21,120 sorry so we wandered away from your 2200 01:19:23,350 --> 01:19:22,800 question about what surprises but the 2201 01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:23,360 other 2202 01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:26,000 surprise is just basically the impromptu 2203 01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:27,920 implausibility of this happening to me 2204 01:19:31,510 --> 01:19:30,159 basically 2205 01:19:33,189 --> 01:19:31,520 when you were talking about what makes a 2206 01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:33,199 good computer or a good person 2207 01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:34,719 and you're using good in a different 2208 01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:36,400 manner i assume you're using it in terms 2209 01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:36,960 of 2210 01:19:41,030 --> 01:19:39,760 adaptive or or effective or accurate or 2211 01:19:42,870 --> 01:19:41,040 at least 2212 01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:42,880 not using too much energy to accomplish 2213 01:19:47,430 --> 01:19:44,320 its tasks 2214 01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:47,440 that to me sounds like almost a 2215 01:19:50,709 --> 01:19:49,280 restatement of occam's razor that you 2216 01:19:51,590 --> 01:19:50,719 want the minimal assumptions to account 2217 01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:51,600 for the most data 2218 01:19:54,630 --> 01:19:53,760 is that similar no oh no it's exactly 2219 01:19:56,229 --> 01:19:54,640 the same thing so 2220 01:19:57,990 --> 01:19:56,239 that's excellent yeah no that that's 2221 01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,000 things exactly so 2222 01:20:02,070 --> 01:20:00,719 you know the the the pressure to provide 2223 01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:02,080 a simple account 2224 01:20:05,910 --> 01:20:05,600 of the uh of the data is exactly getting 2225 01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,920 this 2226 01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:07,920 um paying the least complexity costs 2227 01:20:11,910 --> 01:20:09,040 possible for the ac 2228 01:20:12,310 --> 01:20:11,920 for the accurate or the fitting and um 2229 01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:12,320 and 2230 01:20:20,229 --> 01:20:18,880 that's probably more important than the 2231 01:20:22,950 --> 01:20:20,239 accurate fitting 2232 01:20:23,510 --> 01:20:22,960 then you will end up with machine 2233 01:20:26,470 --> 01:20:23,520 learning 2234 01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:26,480 artifacts and devices and schemes that 2235 01:20:32,629 --> 01:20:27,520 over fit 2236 01:20:36,870 --> 01:20:32,639 minimize the complexity 2237 01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:36,880 of um the uh the explanation at hand or 2238 01:20:39,990 --> 01:20:39,040 you know that effectively their 2239 01:20:43,430 --> 01:20:40,000 inference 2240 01:20:46,390 --> 01:20:43,440 um then you will get um a 2241 01:20:47,270 --> 01:20:46,400 an inference and learning that does not 2242 01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:47,280 generalize 2243 01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:49,600 so inevitably if you allow for 2244 01:20:53,189 --> 01:20:50,880 overfitting 2245 01:20:54,709 --> 01:20:53,199 then you overfit today's data and 2246 01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:54,719 tomorrow's data 2247 01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,239 are very difficult to explain because 2248 01:21:00,390 --> 01:20:58,239 you've over explained today's data 2249 01:21:03,110 --> 01:21:00,400 so just practically what this manifests 2250 01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:03,120 as is a problem of sharp minima 2251 01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:05,840 and difficult to solve optimization 2252 01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:06,480 problems 2253 01:21:12,830 --> 01:21:09,600 in machine learning you get stuck 2254 01:21:15,990 --> 01:21:12,840 in local minima that have a very very 2255 01:21:18,149 --> 01:21:16,000 difficult yeah and and that's because 2256 01:21:19,590 --> 01:21:18,159 you you haven't you haven't flattened 2257 01:21:22,390 --> 01:21:19,600 the minima 2258 01:21:23,030 --> 01:21:22,400 by building into your objective function 2259 01:21:28,470 --> 01:21:23,040 this 2260 01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:28,480 complexity suppressing aspect and of 2261 01:21:32,470 --> 01:21:29,840 course once you 2262 01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:32,480 have an objective function um which 2263 01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:33,600 actually 2264 01:21:39,669 --> 01:21:36,800 entails that complexity minimizing 2265 01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:39,679 um imperative then the minima by 2266 01:21:43,430 --> 01:21:41,199 definition 2267 01:21:44,390 --> 01:21:43,440 the free energy minima are always 2268 01:21:46,310 --> 01:21:44,400 shallow 2269 01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,320 so that you've got a lot of latitude to 2270 01:21:50,229 --> 01:21:48,480 wander around your minima so you're not 2271 01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:50,239 committing to a particular sharp 2272 01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:53,040 explanation of over explaining the data 2273 01:21:54,870 --> 01:21:53,440 so 2274 01:21:57,110 --> 01:21:54,880 it's a really practically really 2275 01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:57,120 important you know observation though 2276 01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:58,880 i should say that when i talk about good 2277 01:22:02,470 --> 01:22:00,960 i just mean minimizing free energy or 2278 01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:02,480 maximizing evidence 2279 01:22:07,590 --> 01:22:05,600 so that's the only good for me 2280 01:22:09,590 --> 01:22:07,600 which is you know fit for purpose in 2281 01:22:11,510 --> 01:22:09,600 this world having a good model of this 2282 01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:11,520 of this particular world let me see if i 2283 01:22:15,189 --> 01:22:13,040 can explain 2284 01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:15,199 what i heard in another manner let's say 2285 01:22:19,030 --> 01:22:16,719 you're playing roulette what you want to 2286 01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:19,040 do is 2287 01:22:23,350 --> 01:22:21,040 you want to have a minimization of your 2288 01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:23,360 mismatch of prediction versus 2289 01:22:28,229 --> 01:22:26,080 actuality but let's say you have a good 2290 01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:28,239 reason to believe that 33 black 2291 01:22:32,149 --> 01:22:31,199 is going to be hit you don't put all 2292 01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:32,159 your eggs 2293 01:22:35,189 --> 01:22:33,679 in that one basket because you could be 2294 01:22:36,870 --> 01:22:35,199 wrong so you need to have some spread 2295 01:22:38,229 --> 01:22:36,880 it's not a direct delta function it's 2296 01:22:41,669 --> 01:22:38,239 not just that 2297 01:22:42,709 --> 01:22:41,679 and then that spread is equivalent to 2298 01:22:43,910 --> 01:22:42,719 entropy 2299 01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:43,920 is that correct because there's a 2300 01:22:47,350 --> 01:22:46,000 trade-off between you wanting to be 2301 01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:47,360 completely accurate but then leaving 2302 01:22:51,270 --> 01:22:49,199 one's options open yep no 2303 01:22:53,430 --> 01:22:51,280 that's absolutely right so that that 2304 01:22:55,270 --> 01:22:53,440 well you you use that wonderful phrase 2305 01:22:56,550 --> 01:22:55,280 leaving one's option open having that 2306 01:22:59,270 --> 01:22:56,560 latitude in pla 2307 01:22:59,910 --> 01:22:59,280 in in play is a very important aspect of 2308 01:23:03,430 --> 01:22:59,920 this 2309 01:23:06,310 --> 01:23:03,440 um expected complexity minimizing 2310 01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:06,320 imperative that you get from um you know 2311 01:23:11,830 --> 01:23:08,159 sort of uh trying to minimize 2312 01:23:13,990 --> 01:23:11,840 um the expected free energy for expected 2313 01:23:16,629 --> 01:23:14,000 following a particular choice or action 2314 01:23:17,350 --> 01:23:16,639 so um just in that particular instance 2315 01:23:21,030 --> 01:23:17,360 um 2316 01:23:24,950 --> 01:23:21,040 you know the if you would 2317 01:23:28,229 --> 01:23:24,960 if you were um acting according to um 2318 01:23:28,709 --> 01:23:28,239 uh expected utility maximization and you 2319 01:23:32,629 --> 01:23:28,719 thought 2320 01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:32,639 that the um the black 33 was 2321 01:23:37,110 --> 01:23:34,719 was the most likely outcome then you put 2322 01:23:39,669 --> 01:23:37,120 all your money as a delta function 2323 01:23:41,270 --> 01:23:39,679 on that outcome that's not what kl 2324 01:23:42,790 --> 01:23:41,280 control does that's not what with 2325 01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:42,800 sensitive control 2326 01:23:45,910 --> 01:23:44,480 it's not what the sort of the 2327 01:23:48,870 --> 01:23:45,920 exploitative part 2328 01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:48,880 of minimizing expected free energy does 2329 01:23:54,070 --> 01:23:50,560 it tries to match 2330 01:23:55,590 --> 01:23:54,080 your um anticipated outcomes with your 2331 01:23:57,189 --> 01:23:55,600 with your prior beliefs that 2332 01:23:58,470 --> 01:23:57,199 incorporates exactly that kind of 2333 01:24:02,149 --> 01:23:58,480 uncertainty 2334 01:24:04,950 --> 01:24:02,159 um and indeed there may be situations 2335 01:24:06,550 --> 01:24:04,960 where your behavior at the roulette 2336 01:24:09,189 --> 01:24:06,560 table 2337 01:24:11,990 --> 01:24:09,199 is doesn't look as if it's just about 2338 01:24:13,990 --> 01:24:12,000 trying to maximize the amount of money 2339 01:24:15,669 --> 01:24:14,000 that you will get following the bet you 2340 01:24:17,669 --> 01:24:15,679 may be 2341 01:24:19,189 --> 01:24:17,679 sometimes compelled to engage in 2342 01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:19,199 epistemic behaviors that resolve 2343 01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:20,400 uncertainty 2344 01:24:23,510 --> 01:24:23,040 so say that you had the hypothesis that 2345 01:24:29,430 --> 01:24:23,520 the 2346 01:24:31,590 --> 01:24:29,440 and it was rigged in a way that depended 2347 01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:31,600 upon the way that people placed bets 2348 01:24:35,030 --> 01:24:33,520 then you might actually place a bet just 2349 01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:35,040 to see what would happen 2350 01:24:38,790 --> 01:24:37,040 in terms of the you know what the person 2351 01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:38,800 who's in charge of speeding the wheel 2352 01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:41,520 does so you know not every move is just 2353 01:24:44,629 --> 01:24:42,000 about 2354 01:24:46,310 --> 01:24:44,639 minimizing um some or realizing some 2355 01:24:47,590 --> 01:24:46,320 prior preferences or minimizing some 2356 01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:47,600 loss function 2357 01:24:50,709 --> 01:24:50,159 a lot of a lot of our moves are actually 2358 01:24:53,910 --> 01:24:50,719 to 2359 01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:53,920 resolve uncertainty and disclose 2360 01:24:58,310 --> 01:24:56,719 things that we don't know uh resolve our 2361 01:24:59,270 --> 01:24:58,320 uncertainty about the other 2362 01:25:01,270 --> 01:24:59,280 contingencies 2363 01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:01,280 under which we're operating so then you 2364 01:25:06,310 --> 01:25:03,280 can get into all sorts of interesting 2365 01:25:09,590 --> 01:25:06,320 um paradoxes in terms of deceit 2366 01:25:10,550 --> 01:25:09,600 and regret and making moves just to 2367 01:25:13,030 --> 01:25:10,560 reveal 2368 01:25:14,950 --> 01:25:13,040 what's going on out there and 2369 01:25:17,350 --> 01:25:14,960 particularly in transactions with 2370 01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:17,360 with with other people so that's another 2371 01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:19,120 you know just beyond the kl the 2372 01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:21,120 engineers perspective on kl control the 2373 01:25:25,030 --> 01:25:22,560 matching behavior 2374 01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:25,040 which is in psychology that's your you 2375 01:25:27,910 --> 01:25:26,560 try to match the probability 2376 01:25:31,510 --> 01:25:27,920 distributions 2377 01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:31,520 are from which you sample your choices 2378 01:25:35,030 --> 01:25:34,239 to the underlying payoff structure at 2379 01:25:37,510 --> 01:25:35,040 hand 2380 01:25:38,709 --> 01:25:37,520 um so that you know that would be one 2381 01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:38,719 way of looking at 2382 01:25:42,310 --> 01:25:41,679 the utility of a kl controller risk 2383 01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,320 sensitive 2384 01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:44,719 uh kind of control but beyond that 2385 01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:45,600 there's also 2386 01:25:49,990 --> 01:25:48,239 explicit sort of uncertainty resolving 2387 01:25:53,430 --> 01:25:50,000 moves you can make 2388 01:25:55,750 --> 01:25:53,440 such as checking which is a fair fair 2389 01:25:57,189 --> 01:25:55,760 gambling house and a non-fair one on 2390 01:25:59,910 --> 01:25:57,199 google before you actually 2391 01:26:02,709 --> 01:25:59,920 start you know commit to going to gamble 2392 01:26:05,189 --> 01:26:02,719 in this house as opposed to that house 2393 01:26:07,990 --> 01:26:05,199 yeah speaking of gambling have you heard 2394 01:26:10,709 --> 01:26:08,000 of newcomb's paradox 2395 01:26:12,149 --> 01:26:10,719 oh okay well look it up at some point 2396 01:26:15,510 --> 01:26:12,159 i'll say it here but 2397 01:26:18,390 --> 01:26:15,520 the paradox is imagine you go to 2398 01:26:20,149 --> 01:26:18,400 a circus tent and then someone says here 2399 01:26:21,189 --> 01:26:20,159 is a box it's clear and it has a 2400 01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:21,199 thousand dollars in it 2401 01:26:24,390 --> 01:26:23,760 that's box a then box b is sealed can't 2402 01:26:27,669 --> 01:26:24,400 see it 2403 01:26:28,950 --> 01:26:27,679 but the fortune teller inside there says 2404 01:26:31,270 --> 01:26:28,960 i think it's you can choose either the 2405 01:26:32,470 --> 01:26:31,280 sealed box or both boxes those are your 2406 01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:32,480 only choices 2407 01:26:37,990 --> 01:26:34,800 now what's in the sealed box is one 2408 01:26:41,350 --> 01:26:40,070 ah i'm messing it up you'll just have to 2409 01:26:43,830 --> 01:26:41,360 look it up it's something 2410 01:26:45,750 --> 01:26:43,840 please let me spasmodically verbally 2411 01:26:46,790 --> 01:26:45,760 vomit here for a second as i try and get 2412 01:26:48,470 --> 01:26:46,800 it correct because it's 2413 01:26:50,310 --> 01:26:48,480 actually it's an interesting paradox and 2414 01:26:51,590 --> 01:26:50,320 i wanted to know what your theory had to 2415 01:26:52,709 --> 01:26:51,600 say about and obviously you can't answer 2416 01:26:54,950 --> 01:26:52,719 that in real time because 2417 01:26:55,830 --> 01:26:54,960 you might have to think about it but 2418 01:26:57,350 --> 01:26:55,840 it's something like okay you have a 2419 01:26:59,030 --> 01:26:57,360 sealed box you have a million dollars 2420 01:27:01,189 --> 01:26:59,040 a million dollars may be in it or it's 2421 01:27:03,189 --> 01:27:01,199 not i'm trying to work through what the 2422 01:27:05,189 --> 01:27:03,199 actual paradox is the fortune teller 2423 01:27:07,590 --> 01:27:05,199 says i have predicted 2424 01:27:08,709 --> 01:27:07,600 i'm 100 correct maybe there's a sensor 2425 01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:08,719 you can say there's a sensor that 2426 01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:09,600 analyzed your brain 2427 01:27:14,070 --> 01:27:11,840 and it knows what you're going to do and 2428 01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:14,080 she either put one million dollars in it 2429 01:27:22,390 --> 01:27:19,760 or didn't depending on if you 2430 01:27:22,870 --> 01:27:22,400 depending on if you choose ah right she 2431 01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:22,880 says 2432 01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:24,960 if you're going to choose this single 2433 01:27:30,070 --> 01:27:28,320 box just the box alone the sealed box 2434 01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:30,080 then i've included a million dollars in 2435 01:27:32,550 --> 01:27:31,679 it i've already predicted which one 2436 01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:32,560 you're going to do by the way but i'm 2437 01:27:35,030 --> 01:27:33,360 just letting you know 2438 01:27:36,550 --> 01:27:35,040 if you just picked the sealed box you 2439 01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:36,560 get a million dollars i put a million 2440 01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:37,440 dollars in it 2441 01:27:40,950 --> 01:27:39,120 if you choose both boxes because you're 2442 01:27:41,990 --> 01:27:40,960 greedy i put nothing inside the sealed 2443 01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:42,000 box 2444 01:27:45,430 --> 01:27:43,840 so then the question is what do you do 2445 01:27:46,550 --> 01:27:45,440 now you have to make many assumptions 2446 01:27:47,910 --> 01:27:46,560 you have to assume she's telling the 2447 01:27:48,550 --> 01:27:47,920 truth when she says that she's able to 2448 01:27:51,110 --> 01:27:48,560 predict you 2449 01:27:51,830 --> 01:27:51,120 with 100 accuracy but even if it's 99 2450 01:27:53,590 --> 01:27:51,840 accuracy 2451 01:27:54,870 --> 01:27:53,600 the paradox still holds the question is 2452 01:27:57,510 --> 01:27:54,880 well what do you do 2453 01:27:58,709 --> 01:27:57,520 you may say okay now that i'm there she 2454 01:28:00,790 --> 01:27:58,719 made that decision beforehand the 2455 01:28:01,189 --> 01:28:00,800 million dollars is either there or not i 2456 01:28:03,189 --> 01:28:01,199 might 2457 01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:03,199 may as well take both boxes so that's 2458 01:28:05,990 --> 01:28:04,560 one 2459 01:28:07,990 --> 01:28:06,000 way of reasoning through this problem 2460 01:28:11,350 --> 01:28:08,000 but another one is to think okay 2461 01:28:13,990 --> 01:28:11,360 all the people that just selected the 2462 01:28:14,950 --> 01:28:14,000 sealed box get one million because 2463 01:28:17,510 --> 01:28:14,960 that's the way that 2464 01:28:19,270 --> 01:28:17,520 she said it's worked she said also that 2465 01:28:21,270 --> 01:28:19,280 hey i've done this millions of times and 2466 01:28:22,629 --> 01:28:21,280 i've always predicted correctly 2467 01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:22,639 so then what do you do do you risk 2468 01:28:25,430 --> 01:28:24,480 taking both boxes or do you just take 2469 01:28:30,229 --> 01:28:25,440 one 2470 01:28:32,229 --> 01:28:30,239 and it's it shows a difference in 2471 01:28:34,149 --> 01:28:32,239 i forget what it's called either causal 2472 01:28:36,149 --> 01:28:34,159 decision theory and 2473 01:28:37,430 --> 01:28:36,159 there's another type of decision theory 2474 01:28:39,750 --> 01:28:37,440 one where you maximize 2475 01:28:41,510 --> 01:28:39,760 evidential based decision theory so 2476 01:28:43,189 --> 01:28:41,520 usually those two 2477 01:28:44,950 --> 01:28:43,199 imply the same solution but here they 2478 01:28:46,709 --> 01:28:44,960 don't 2479 01:28:47,990 --> 01:28:46,719 anyway i wanted to know what the free 2480 01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:48,000 energy principle says 2481 01:28:51,350 --> 01:28:49,199 one should do because it's a famous 2482 01:28:53,430 --> 01:28:51,360 paradox 2483 01:28:55,270 --> 01:28:53,440 let's forget about that then we're gonna 2484 01:28:57,510 --> 01:28:55,280 have to go and google that one 2485 01:28:58,470 --> 01:28:57,520 it sounds even more complicated than the 2486 01:29:02,550 --> 01:28:58,480 monty hall 2487 01:29:04,550 --> 01:29:02,560 uh um paradox problem um 2488 01:29:05,669 --> 01:29:04,560 so i know it sounds intriguing so you 2489 01:29:08,790 --> 01:29:05,679 you yeah 2490 01:29:11,750 --> 01:29:08,800 and so the paradox is is basically 2491 01:29:13,430 --> 01:29:11,760 um the paradox that is confronted by you 2492 01:29:15,590 --> 01:29:13,440 in the situation as opposed to a 2493 01:29:16,709 --> 01:29:15,600 paradoxical behavior that people 2494 01:29:18,149 --> 01:29:16,719 actually right right you want to 2495 01:29:19,910 --> 01:29:18,159 maximize the amount of money 2496 01:29:21,350 --> 01:29:19,920 so let's assume you're instrumentally 2497 01:29:21,750 --> 01:29:21,360 rational that is you want to maximize 2498 01:29:25,030 --> 01:29:21,760 your 2499 01:29:26,229 --> 01:29:25,040 do okay so forget about that something i 2500 01:29:27,990 --> 01:29:26,239 was wondering about the free energy 2501 01:29:30,310 --> 01:29:28,000 principle is how much of it do you 2502 01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:30,320 see as a principle like a law like a law 2503 01:29:34,629 --> 01:29:31,280 of physics 2504 01:29:36,870 --> 01:29:34,639 versus a compression mechanism so for 2505 01:29:39,590 --> 01:29:36,880 example what i mean by that is when you 2506 01:29:40,310 --> 01:29:39,600 look at maxwell's original paper for his 2507 01:29:42,950 --> 01:29:40,320 four 2508 01:29:44,950 --> 01:29:42,960 laws there are actually 26 different 2509 01:29:45,669 --> 01:29:44,960 equations or 24. it's two pages long 2510 01:29:47,830 --> 01:29:45,679 because he didn't 2511 01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:47,840 compress it down to the four that we now 2512 01:29:50,830 --> 01:29:49,199 use so these four 2513 01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:50,840 aren't actually four equations they're 2514 01:29:55,669 --> 01:29:52,880 just code 2515 01:29:55,990 --> 01:29:55,679 and then i i always wondered how much of 2516 01:29:58,870 --> 01:29:56,000 our 2517 01:29:59,990 --> 01:29:58,880 lagrangians are sorry the minimization 2518 01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:00,000 of action is an actual 2519 01:30:03,910 --> 01:30:02,400 principle of nature versus this 2520 01:30:05,830 --> 01:30:03,920 compression mechanism that says here are 2521 01:30:06,790 --> 01:30:05,840 your complicated equations of motion 2522 01:30:08,950 --> 01:30:06,800 what you can do 2523 01:30:10,790 --> 01:30:08,960 is you can package it into this 2524 01:30:11,270 --> 01:30:10,800 simplified little lagrangian that you 2525 01:30:12,950 --> 01:30:11,280 then 2526 01:30:14,390 --> 01:30:12,960 put into the euler lagrange equations 2527 01:30:15,430 --> 01:30:14,400 and you crank out the equations of 2528 01:30:18,870 --> 01:30:15,440 motions 2529 01:30:22,070 --> 01:30:20,470 a principle in and of itself it's more 2530 01:30:22,950 --> 01:30:22,080 like a zipping of something that's 2531 01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:22,960 convoluted 2532 01:30:26,709 --> 01:30:25,920 so do you see the free energy principle 2533 01:30:32,629 --> 01:30:26,719 as 2534 01:30:35,350 --> 01:30:32,639 made an analogy about with lagrangian 2535 01:30:36,870 --> 01:30:35,360 mechanics and the lagrangian 2536 01:30:38,390 --> 01:30:36,880 that is it's just compressing it could 2537 01:30:41,830 --> 01:30:38,400 just be compressing yeah 2538 01:30:44,950 --> 01:30:41,840 um i think that um 2539 01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:44,960 i see it as a law um but i think that 2540 01:30:49,189 --> 01:30:47,360 distinction is is 2541 01:30:50,870 --> 01:30:49,199 very nicely articulated and i think it's 2542 01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:50,880 really in play in my world 2543 01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:54,000 in a slightly different way so um i 2544 01:30:58,149 --> 01:30:54,880 repeat the 2545 01:31:00,629 --> 01:30:58,159 the free energy principle is just 2546 01:31:01,510 --> 01:31:00,639 um a variational principle of stationary 2547 01:31:04,870 --> 01:31:01,520 action 2548 01:31:08,070 --> 01:31:04,880 um cast in terms of density dynamics 2549 01:31:11,350 --> 01:31:08,080 of things that have markov blankets 2550 01:31:14,629 --> 01:31:11,360 and by implication at steady state so 2551 01:31:16,070 --> 01:31:14,639 it is as it plays a role um 2552 01:31:17,669 --> 01:31:16,080 exactly the same role as hamilton's 2553 01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:17,679 principles of um 2554 01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:19,920 stationary or at least action so it 2555 01:31:22,149 --> 01:31:21,840 either applies or it doesn't so it's not 2556 01:31:30,070 --> 01:31:22,159 a 2557 01:31:32,870 --> 01:31:30,080 useful you know it's just 2558 01:31:34,310 --> 01:31:32,880 a way of writing down and zipping things 2559 01:31:37,590 --> 01:31:34,320 up as you nicely put it 2560 01:31:39,510 --> 01:31:37,600 um in an internally coherent way that 2561 01:31:42,229 --> 01:31:39,520 speaks to sort of you know as all 2562 01:31:44,550 --> 01:31:42,239 i think these useful principles do some 2563 01:31:47,110 --> 01:31:44,560 symmetry or some invariance property 2564 01:31:48,950 --> 01:31:47,120 uh for me um the variational principles 2565 01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:48,960 of station reaction are the are the 2566 01:31:53,030 --> 01:31:50,800 simplest and most graceful way of 2567 01:31:54,629 --> 01:31:53,040 expressing these symmetries uh you can 2568 01:31:56,790 --> 01:31:54,639 do it with gage theories or 2569 01:31:58,550 --> 01:31:56,800 um i'm sure there are other formulations 2570 01:32:01,110 --> 01:31:58,560 but for me um 2571 01:32:01,910 --> 01:32:01,120 you know the the best way is just to to 2572 01:32:05,030 --> 01:32:01,920 use that 2573 01:32:06,229 --> 01:32:05,040 principle at least of of least action or 2574 01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:06,239 stationary action 2575 01:32:09,910 --> 01:32:08,080 um so that's what the free energy 2576 01:32:13,030 --> 01:32:09,920 principle does but as you say 2577 01:32:13,750 --> 01:32:13,040 um you know for the free energy 2578 01:32:16,070 --> 01:32:13,760 principle 2579 01:32:17,750 --> 01:32:16,080 um what does that actually mean in 2580 01:32:20,790 --> 01:32:17,760 practice well it means that um 2581 01:32:24,830 --> 01:32:20,800 anything that exists can be understood 2582 01:32:28,790 --> 01:32:24,840 um and simulated um or built 2583 01:32:30,390 --> 01:32:28,800 um as a gradient flow on a free energy 2584 01:32:32,790 --> 01:32:30,400 function a function of what 2585 01:32:33,430 --> 01:32:32,800 well the free energy is a function of 2586 01:32:37,350 --> 01:32:33,440 the 2587 01:32:40,629 --> 01:32:37,360 blanket 2588 01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:40,639 and the um 2589 01:32:44,229 --> 01:32:43,679 bayesian beliefs about the posterior 2590 01:32:47,430 --> 01:32:44,239 beliefs 2591 01:32:49,830 --> 01:32:47,440 about the causes of those data that are 2592 01:32:52,950 --> 01:32:49,840 encoded by the internal states 2593 01:32:55,189 --> 01:32:52,960 so um where does that um 2594 01:32:56,149 --> 01:32:55,199 where does the where do those beliefs 2595 01:32:58,229 --> 01:32:56,159 come from 2596 01:33:00,149 --> 01:32:58,239 um well they're defined or the free 2597 01:33:01,430 --> 01:33:00,159 energy is defined 2598 01:33:03,669 --> 01:33:01,440 uh if you think of this sort of 2599 01:33:06,390 --> 01:33:03,679 prediction error version or 2600 01:33:07,990 --> 01:33:06,400 um reading of free energy they are 2601 01:33:09,590 --> 01:33:08,000 defined by a genetic model 2602 01:33:12,229 --> 01:33:09,600 that predicts the sensations that you 2603 01:33:14,229 --> 01:33:12,239 would get if that model was right 2604 01:33:16,629 --> 01:33:14,239 so you have to have a genetic model so 2605 01:33:18,310 --> 01:33:16,639 you know there is going to be a universe 2606 01:33:22,070 --> 01:33:18,320 of genetic models you could plug 2607 01:33:23,750 --> 01:33:22,080 into the uh underlying um 2608 01:33:25,830 --> 01:33:23,760 uh gradient flows the helmholtz 2609 01:33:28,470 --> 01:33:25,840 decomposition that we talked about that 2610 01:33:29,669 --> 01:33:28,480 um that basically describes all dynamics 2611 01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:29,679 you know 2612 01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:32,639 uh for systems that can be cast valve 2613 01:33:35,990 --> 01:33:34,000 with markov blankets 2614 01:33:37,510 --> 01:33:36,000 um so the question is not so much now 2615 01:33:39,030 --> 01:33:37,520 the free energy principle or the 2616 01:33:40,149 --> 01:33:39,040 application of a variation principle at 2617 01:33:42,870 --> 01:33:40,159 least action 2618 01:33:44,709 --> 01:33:42,880 but really what is the generative model 2619 01:33:46,229 --> 01:33:44,719 so at this point i think then you move 2620 01:33:48,310 --> 01:33:46,239 away from the principle 2621 01:33:50,470 --> 01:33:48,320 and you start now to get into the world 2622 01:33:53,030 --> 01:33:50,480 of process theories and 2623 01:33:54,070 --> 01:33:53,040 hypotheses so and you can ask that 2624 01:33:55,350 --> 01:33:54,080 question or you can have those 2625 01:33:55,990 --> 01:33:55,360 hypotheses at a number of different 2626 01:33:58,550 --> 01:33:56,000 levels 2627 01:34:00,629 --> 01:33:58,560 you can actually take a working system a 2628 01:34:03,030 --> 01:34:00,639 person say if you're a psychiatrist 2629 01:34:04,870 --> 01:34:03,040 you know somebody who might have 2630 01:34:06,310 --> 01:34:04,880 obsession compulsive disorder 2631 01:34:07,990 --> 01:34:06,320 and you may say well i want to 2632 01:34:11,189 --> 01:34:08,000 understand them now 2633 01:34:13,590 --> 01:34:11,199 as making decisions under some model 2634 01:34:14,310 --> 01:34:13,600 of their lived world some genetic model 2635 01:34:17,910 --> 01:34:14,320 i know 2636 01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:17,920 the principles that underwrite their 2637 01:34:20,310 --> 01:34:18,960 choices 2638 01:34:21,669 --> 01:34:20,320 but what i don't know is their journey 2639 01:34:23,910 --> 01:34:21,679 to modern their private leads so i'm 2640 01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:23,920 going to now reverse engineer 2641 01:34:27,110 --> 01:34:25,920 on the basis of their behavior what are 2642 01:34:28,790 --> 01:34:27,120 their prior beliefs 2643 01:34:30,149 --> 01:34:28,800 what what do they actually believe is 2644 01:34:32,470 --> 01:34:30,159 going on to ex 2645 01:34:33,750 --> 01:34:32,480 best explain this behavior so that would 2646 01:34:35,910 --> 01:34:33,760 be one application 2647 01:34:37,430 --> 01:34:35,920 another application might be uh building 2648 01:34:38,229 --> 01:34:37,440 artificial intelligence machine 2649 01:34:42,149 --> 01:34:38,239 artifacts 2650 01:34:45,669 --> 01:34:42,159 you know where i now write down 2651 01:34:47,189 --> 01:34:45,679 the um the prior preferences 2652 01:34:49,189 --> 01:34:47,199 of a generative model the kinds of 2653 01:34:52,390 --> 01:34:49,199 states that i want this system 2654 01:34:53,270 --> 01:34:52,400 uh to aspire to and i then just let it 2655 01:34:56,310 --> 01:34:53,280 you know i just 2656 01:34:57,350 --> 01:34:56,320 um equip it with active states and 2657 01:34:59,830 --> 01:34:57,360 actuators 2658 01:35:00,790 --> 01:34:59,840 and sensory states and sensors and make 2659 01:35:03,910 --> 01:35:00,800 a little robot 2660 01:35:07,430 --> 01:35:03,920 and off it will go and it will go and 2661 01:35:08,550 --> 01:35:07,440 epistemically forage always with a mind 2662 01:35:11,109 --> 01:35:08,560 to 2663 01:35:12,950 --> 01:35:11,119 learning about its world but also under 2664 01:35:14,709 --> 01:35:12,960 the constraint of its prior preferences 2665 01:35:16,390 --> 01:35:14,719 like keeping its battery charged 2666 01:35:18,229 --> 01:35:16,400 so that would be another instance but in 2667 01:35:21,430 --> 01:35:18,239 both applications 2668 01:35:23,510 --> 01:35:21,440 i've had to either reverse engineer 2669 01:35:25,750 --> 01:35:23,520 or commit to a particular generative 2670 01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:25,760 model and that's where i think the 2671 01:35:29,189 --> 01:35:28,159 you know you moved a long way away from 2672 01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:29,199 principles 2673 01:35:33,430 --> 01:35:32,080 and if it's a question about does this 2674 01:35:34,149 --> 01:35:33,440 person with obsessional compulsive 2675 01:35:35,750 --> 01:35:34,159 disorder 2676 01:35:37,510 --> 01:35:35,760 have this kind of genetic model of that 2677 01:35:39,189 --> 01:35:37,520 kind of narrative model 2678 01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:39,199 and that's now a hypothesis naturally 2679 01:35:44,870 --> 01:35:42,080 falsified with respect to the evidence 2680 01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:44,880 um if it's a question of building an 2681 01:35:49,189 --> 01:35:45,840 artifact 2682 01:35:51,030 --> 01:35:49,199 do i use a discrete state space um 2683 01:35:52,470 --> 01:35:51,040 generative model or a continuous one 2684 01:35:54,470 --> 01:35:52,480 which means i'm now committing to 2685 01:35:56,790 --> 01:35:54,480 different kinds of message passing 2686 01:35:58,550 --> 01:35:56,800 um is discrete it could be a variational 2687 01:36:01,109 --> 01:35:58,560 message passing or belief propagation 2688 01:36:02,709 --> 01:36:01,119 if it's continuous i'll be using things 2689 01:36:05,189 --> 01:36:02,719 like um 2690 01:36:05,990 --> 01:36:05,199 linear quadratic control or kalman busy 2691 01:36:10,310 --> 01:36:06,000 filters 2692 01:36:12,310 --> 01:36:10,320 um so again you're you're you're now um 2693 01:36:13,510 --> 01:36:12,320 in the mechanics of the processes that 2694 01:36:16,070 --> 01:36:13,520 are that are 2695 01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:16,080 realizing these gradient flows and of 2696 01:36:20,070 --> 01:36:18,400 course there are no principles or rules 2697 01:36:22,229 --> 01:36:20,080 that tell you you're right or wrong 2698 01:36:22,629 --> 01:36:22,239 these are all um process theories that 2699 01:36:24,629 --> 01:36:22,639 you know 2700 01:36:25,830 --> 01:36:24,639 that might work and that might not work 2701 01:36:27,750 --> 01:36:25,840 so you know 2702 01:36:29,510 --> 01:36:27,760 i think the zipping that you talked 2703 01:36:30,229 --> 01:36:29,520 about is from my point of view it's 2704 01:36:33,669 --> 01:36:30,239 basically 2705 01:36:37,270 --> 01:36:33,679 um uh unzipping the principle 2706 01:36:40,070 --> 01:36:37,280 to to to realize that under the hood 2707 01:36:41,510 --> 01:36:40,080 it is the generative model that supplies 2708 01:36:44,310 --> 01:36:41,520 the free energy gradients 2709 01:36:44,709 --> 01:36:44,320 that drive the gradient flows that's the 2710 01:36:46,470 --> 01:36:44,719 big 2711 01:36:47,750 --> 01:36:46,480 open question and getting the generator 2712 01:36:49,990 --> 01:36:47,760 model right 2713 01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:50,000 is in most instances scientifically or 2714 01:36:53,910 --> 01:36:51,119 indeed in industry 2715 01:36:55,350 --> 01:36:53,920 and possibly even in medical 2716 01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,360 translational practice 2717 01:36:58,390 --> 01:36:57,600 translation of these ideas in medical 2718 01:37:00,950 --> 01:36:58,400 practice 2719 01:37:03,270 --> 01:37:00,960 it's all about getting the right kind of 2720 01:37:05,109 --> 01:37:03,280 genetic model and your hypotheses 2721 01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:05,119 about that general about that genitive 2722 01:37:08,310 --> 01:37:06,800 model 2723 01:37:10,470 --> 01:37:08,320 you said a couple of statements that 2724 01:37:11,910 --> 01:37:10,480 reminded me of jordan peterson 2725 01:37:13,510 --> 01:37:11,920 now i'm not sure how much you follow 2726 01:37:15,030 --> 01:37:13,520 jordan peterson at all but he's a 2727 01:37:16,629 --> 01:37:15,040 proponent of 2728 01:37:18,629 --> 01:37:16,639 watching what someone does to infer 2729 01:37:19,669 --> 01:37:18,639 their beliefs so that is 2730 01:37:20,629 --> 01:37:19,679 okay well you're not good so you 2731 01:37:21,669 --> 01:37:20,639 understand what that means and then 2732 01:37:23,669 --> 01:37:21,679 number two 2733 01:37:25,030 --> 01:37:23,679 he also mentions order and chaos and the 2734 01:37:26,870 --> 01:37:25,040 balance between them which is 2735 01:37:28,950 --> 01:37:26,880 taoist that you don't want the 2736 01:37:31,830 --> 01:37:28,960 elimination of one or the predominance 2737 01:37:34,070 --> 01:37:31,840 of another you want a special balance 2738 01:37:35,910 --> 01:37:34,080 between them which reminds me of what 2739 01:37:39,189 --> 01:37:35,920 you said about surprise and then 2740 01:37:41,030 --> 01:37:39,199 i believe it's kale divergence right 2741 01:37:42,870 --> 01:37:41,040 okay you don't want one to dominate 2742 01:37:45,510 --> 01:37:42,880 there's a delicate balance have you 2743 01:37:47,270 --> 01:37:45,520 heard jordan peterson speak on order and 2744 01:37:48,229 --> 01:37:47,280 chaos and do you see any correspondence 2745 01:37:50,790 --> 01:37:48,239 between 2746 01:37:51,510 --> 01:37:50,800 the free energy principle and what he 2747 01:37:55,189 --> 01:37:51,520 says about 2748 01:37:58,310 --> 01:37:55,199 chaos and order yes i i think so um 2749 01:38:00,470 --> 01:37:58,320 i mean i would um 2750 01:38:02,550 --> 01:38:00,480 i would put this i mean there are a 2751 01:38:04,070 --> 01:38:02,560 number of different routes one could 2752 01:38:07,750 --> 01:38:04,080 take to that kind of issue 2753 01:38:11,270 --> 01:38:07,760 um you could ask yourself um 2754 01:38:13,270 --> 01:38:11,280 is there any um first principal account 2755 01:38:14,390 --> 01:38:13,280 for example of self-organized 2756 01:38:16,870 --> 01:38:14,400 criticality 2757 01:38:17,510 --> 01:38:16,880 um so you do you remember the edge of 2758 01:38:20,709 --> 01:38:17,520 chaos 2759 01:38:23,590 --> 01:38:20,719 notions from um from the 2760 01:38:25,030 --> 01:38:23,600 stu kaufman and self-organized 2761 01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:25,040 criticality that was the 2762 01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:26,719 the self i was trying to remember before 2763 01:38:31,910 --> 01:38:28,080 but that's another 2764 01:38:35,270 --> 01:38:31,920 one of these branches of um of physics 2765 01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:35,280 um which starts off with self so soc 2766 01:38:40,390 --> 01:38:37,040 self-organized criticality 2767 01:38:43,669 --> 01:38:40,400 so this is a notion um that 2768 01:38:45,750 --> 01:38:43,679 it is um inevitably the case that any 2769 01:38:49,270 --> 01:38:45,760 self-organizing system will organize 2770 01:38:53,270 --> 01:38:49,280 itself to a regime of critical slowing 2771 01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:53,280 um and dynamical instability 2772 01:38:57,669 --> 01:38:55,760 which you know stuart kaufman might 2773 01:38:59,590 --> 01:38:57,679 might have articulated in terms of 2774 01:39:01,109 --> 01:38:59,600 systems moving themselves towards the 2775 01:39:04,390 --> 01:39:01,119 edge of chaos so 2776 01:39:06,310 --> 01:39:04,400 towards um separate seas towards sort of 2777 01:39:10,470 --> 01:39:06,320 bifurcation 2778 01:39:13,750 --> 01:39:10,480 into regimes usually associated with 2779 01:39:15,270 --> 01:39:13,760 multi-stability or meta stability um um 2780 01:39:17,030 --> 01:39:15,280 you know depending on the nature of the 2781 01:39:21,669 --> 01:39:17,040 dynamical system but this 2782 01:39:24,830 --> 01:39:21,679 tendency to um to 2783 01:39:28,070 --> 01:39:24,840 do to put yourself 2784 01:39:31,189 --> 01:39:28,080 um in a state where 2785 01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:31,199 you have a repertoire of 2786 01:39:38,709 --> 01:39:34,400 dynamics available to you simply because 2787 01:39:41,510 --> 01:39:38,719 you are near disorder you're near chaos 2788 01:39:42,149 --> 01:39:41,520 so but you never actually go chaotic but 2789 01:39:45,750 --> 01:39:42,159 you just 2790 01:39:49,109 --> 01:39:45,760 increase the latitude of of of um 2791 01:39:52,070 --> 01:39:49,119 or the repertoire um of of things 2792 01:39:53,590 --> 01:39:52,080 you know um of dynamics that you you 2793 01:39:56,790 --> 01:39:53,600 that might happen to you 2794 01:39:58,629 --> 01:39:56,800 and that from that perspective um 2795 01:40:00,070 --> 01:39:58,639 then there are sort of there are i think 2796 01:40:02,390 --> 01:40:00,080 a number of interesting 2797 01:40:03,510 --> 01:40:02,400 um things that the free energy 2798 01:40:06,070 --> 01:40:03,520 formulation 2799 01:40:07,590 --> 01:40:06,080 um brings to the table the first we've 2800 01:40:09,030 --> 01:40:07,600 actually already touched on which was 2801 01:40:12,149 --> 01:40:09,040 this 2802 01:40:15,590 --> 01:40:12,159 building in to an optimization 2803 01:40:18,709 --> 01:40:15,600 perspective shallow minima to 2804 01:40:21,990 --> 01:40:18,719 preclude the existence of sharp minima 2805 01:40:24,390 --> 01:40:22,000 and just by having effectively 2806 01:40:25,510 --> 01:40:24,400 occam's principle baked into your 2807 01:40:28,790 --> 01:40:25,520 understanding 2808 01:40:30,270 --> 01:40:28,800 of uh um life 2809 01:40:32,550 --> 01:40:30,280 uh or indeed any kind of 2810 01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:32,560 self-organization um 2811 01:40:39,910 --> 01:40:36,719 as you know um trying to 2812 01:40:42,790 --> 01:40:39,920 optimize this bound on evidence um 2813 01:40:44,790 --> 01:40:42,800 or marginal likelihood then you're 2814 01:40:45,830 --> 01:40:44,800 necessarily saying that you want to have 2815 01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:45,840 these 2816 01:40:50,229 --> 01:40:48,560 low curvature minima you want to occupy 2817 01:40:53,270 --> 01:40:50,239 low curvature minima 2818 01:40:55,030 --> 01:40:53,280 that if you if you now ask what would 2819 01:40:57,590 --> 01:40:55,040 that look like in terms of 2820 01:40:59,669 --> 01:40:57,600 um you know coupling between internal 2821 01:41:03,430 --> 01:40:59,679 and external states in the context 2822 01:41:06,550 --> 01:41:03,440 that the the gradient flows are informed 2823 01:41:08,550 --> 01:41:06,560 when when out free energy minima um 2824 01:41:10,310 --> 01:41:08,560 by very shallow gradients what do you 2825 01:41:13,430 --> 01:41:10,320 get well you get exactly the sort of 2826 01:41:15,750 --> 01:41:13,440 um this latitude um 2827 01:41:17,030 --> 01:41:15,760 for excursions which have a long 2828 01:41:19,910 --> 01:41:17,040 correlation length 2829 01:41:21,430 --> 01:41:19,920 so you get this you know the kind of 2830 01:41:23,270 --> 01:41:21,440 critical slowing 2831 01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:23,280 that is associated with self-organized 2832 01:41:26,709 --> 01:41:24,800 criticality so 2833 01:41:28,390 --> 01:41:26,719 often so heavy-tailed distributions in 2834 01:41:36,070 --> 01:41:28,400 terms of um 2835 01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,080 sort of covariance functions for example 2836 01:41:40,070 --> 01:41:38,639 so that i think there's a simple and 2837 01:41:43,430 --> 01:41:40,080 mathematically 2838 01:41:46,709 --> 01:41:43,440 and deflationary account of 2839 01:41:49,750 --> 01:41:46,719 um the balance between 2840 01:41:52,870 --> 01:41:49,760 order and um 2841 01:41:57,030 --> 01:41:52,880 chaos at least from a purely dynamical 2842 01:42:00,229 --> 01:41:57,040 perspective that is on offer 2843 01:42:02,310 --> 01:42:00,239 via the um the minimization of free 2844 01:42:05,189 --> 01:42:02,320 energy with gradient flows 2845 01:42:06,070 --> 01:42:05,199 simply because you are dealing with 2846 01:42:08,790 --> 01:42:06,080 minima 2847 01:42:09,830 --> 01:42:08,800 that don't trap you they allow for that 2848 01:42:11,990 --> 01:42:09,840 latitude 2849 01:42:14,149 --> 01:42:12,000 so that you avoid i see i see a 2850 01:42:16,229 --> 01:42:14,159 particular solution 2851 01:42:18,149 --> 01:42:16,239 how sharp would be too much order 2852 01:42:19,830 --> 01:42:18,159 absolutely yeah so you just get locked 2853 01:42:20,550 --> 01:42:19,840 in you get you literally get stuck in a 2854 01:42:22,550 --> 01:42:20,560 rut you get 2855 01:42:25,030 --> 01:42:22,560 locked into this particular explanation 2856 01:42:25,990 --> 01:42:25,040 and any slight movement away from a very 2857 01:42:29,109 --> 01:42:26,000 sharp 2858 01:42:30,790 --> 01:42:29,119 minima incurs an enormous penalty um 2859 01:42:33,669 --> 01:42:30,800 right and you just don't make that move 2860 01:42:35,189 --> 01:42:33,679 but if you've got a very shallow basin 2861 01:42:37,510 --> 01:42:35,199 of attraction if you like 2862 01:42:38,629 --> 01:42:37,520 um and i repeat i think the beautiful 2863 01:42:40,709 --> 01:42:38,639 thing about the sort of 2864 01:42:42,229 --> 01:42:40,719 the free energy functionals or this free 2865 01:42:46,070 --> 01:42:42,239 energy functional 2866 01:42:47,910 --> 01:42:46,080 is that it's built to be shallow 2867 01:42:49,750 --> 01:42:47,920 perhaps an analogy would help here that 2868 01:42:53,590 --> 01:42:49,760 but um 2869 01:42:57,350 --> 01:42:53,600 if you think of a free energy landscape 2870 01:43:00,470 --> 01:42:57,360 that is parroted by 2871 01:43:02,149 --> 01:43:00,480 a mountain landscape right from the high 2872 01:43:03,990 --> 01:43:02,159 the mountains mountains and the scottish 2873 01:43:06,310 --> 01:43:04,000 highlands right down to the estuaries 2874 01:43:07,189 --> 01:43:06,320 at sea level then what you typically 2875 01:43:10,950 --> 01:43:07,199 tend to get 2876 01:43:12,229 --> 01:43:10,960 is that very high um terrains of any 2877 01:43:15,270 --> 01:43:12,239 landscape 2878 01:43:18,790 --> 01:43:15,280 have lots of high frequency ravines 2879 01:43:21,189 --> 01:43:18,800 and sharp valleys and sharp minima 2880 01:43:22,149 --> 01:43:21,199 so that a little stream at the top of a 2881 01:43:25,350 --> 01:43:22,159 mountain 2882 01:43:26,870 --> 01:43:25,360 will be um will be cut carving its way 2883 01:43:29,990 --> 01:43:26,880 through very sharp 2884 01:43:31,910 --> 01:43:30,000 um trajectories um 2885 01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:31,920 and then meeting slower and slower and 2886 01:43:35,030 --> 01:43:33,600 wider and wider streams as it comes down 2887 01:43:37,189 --> 01:43:35,040 as it comes down the mountain 2888 01:43:39,109 --> 01:43:37,199 but also what happens is that as you 2889 01:43:41,510 --> 01:43:39,119 come down towards sea level 2890 01:43:42,709 --> 01:43:41,520 as you get to lower lower free energy 2891 01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:42,719 levels 2892 01:43:46,550 --> 01:43:45,440 the terrain itself becomes smoother so 2893 01:43:49,109 --> 01:43:46,560 all the minima 2894 01:43:50,149 --> 01:43:49,119 now have smaller curvature so that you 2895 01:43:53,109 --> 01:43:50,159 don't get those 2896 01:43:53,990 --> 01:43:53,119 sharp little landscape features uh that 2897 01:43:55,830 --> 01:43:54,000 you saw 2898 01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:55,840 high in the free energy or high in the 2899 01:43:58,470 --> 01:43:58,080 mountains anymore what you get a now 2900 01:44:02,629 --> 01:43:58,480 much 2901 01:44:05,350 --> 01:44:02,639 everything because it's a lower 2902 01:44:06,629 --> 01:44:05,360 altitude or a lower free energy has to 2903 01:44:08,310 --> 01:44:06,639 be smoother it has to have a 2904 01:44:10,629 --> 01:44:08,320 you know by occam's principle it has to 2905 01:44:13,430 --> 01:44:10,639 be it has to have less of a curvature 2906 01:44:14,229 --> 01:44:13,440 and what that affords is the latitude 2907 01:44:17,430 --> 01:44:14,239 for 2908 01:44:19,350 --> 01:44:17,440 the river now to start meandering around 2909 01:44:20,629 --> 01:44:19,360 like you know you know sometimes 2910 01:44:23,270 --> 01:44:20,639 following oxbow 2911 01:44:25,270 --> 01:44:23,280 uh legs and features that you that this 2912 01:44:28,390 --> 01:44:25,280 kind of meandering that you see 2913 01:44:30,470 --> 01:44:28,400 as a large river starts to um 2914 01:44:32,149 --> 01:44:30,480 wander and oscillate as as it gets 2915 01:44:32,629 --> 01:44:32,159 towards the estuary and gets towards the 2916 01:44:35,590 --> 01:44:32,639 sea 2917 01:44:37,270 --> 01:44:35,600 and it's that sort of wandering around 2918 01:44:38,790 --> 01:44:37,280 which is that if you like the sort of 2919 01:44:41,910 --> 01:44:38,800 the um 2920 01:44:43,109 --> 01:44:41,920 the permissive or the reflection of what 2921 01:44:46,390 --> 01:44:43,119 can happen 2922 01:44:48,390 --> 01:44:46,400 um with a low curvature um free energy 2923 01:44:51,270 --> 01:44:48,400 functional or objective function 2924 01:44:52,629 --> 01:44:51,280 which is in itself in the sense that if 2925 01:44:53,590 --> 01:44:52,639 the system is trying to minimize its 2926 01:44:56,149 --> 01:44:53,600 free energy and get 2927 01:44:57,669 --> 01:44:56,159 to those estuaries so it can do its once 2928 01:44:59,990 --> 01:44:57,679 slow wandering around 2929 01:45:02,310 --> 01:45:00,000 you get this critical slowing that you 2930 01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:02,320 see dynamically that characterizes 2931 01:45:08,709 --> 01:45:05,600 your all kinds of interesting um 2932 01:45:09,270 --> 01:45:08,719 uh behaviors from sort of um avalanches 2933 01:45:12,550 --> 01:45:09,280 in 2934 01:45:13,830 --> 01:45:12,560 to the markets 2935 01:45:16,149 --> 01:45:13,840 in the old days this might have been 2936 01:45:18,070 --> 01:45:16,159 known as catastrophe theory um 2937 01:45:19,830 --> 01:45:18,080 but you know it's the same notion that 2938 01:45:21,270 --> 01:45:19,840 when we're close to the edge of 2939 01:45:22,870 --> 01:45:21,280 instability 2940 01:45:24,629 --> 01:45:22,880 which means we have the latitude to 2941 01:45:27,910 --> 01:45:24,639 explore different 2942 01:45:29,910 --> 01:45:27,920 states on some objective function 2943 01:45:31,669 --> 01:45:29,920 um that we wouldn't have if we were 2944 01:45:32,870 --> 01:45:31,679 stuck in a rut and committed to a 2945 01:45:34,870 --> 01:45:32,880 particular solution 2946 01:45:37,510 --> 01:45:34,880 and we've overfit the data for example 2947 01:45:39,350 --> 01:45:37,520 or we've got trapped in a local minima 2948 01:45:40,870 --> 01:45:39,360 so that's that's one that's one thing 2949 01:45:42,950 --> 01:45:40,880 that there is another 2950 01:45:44,310 --> 01:45:42,960 aspect though which um we haven't 2951 01:45:46,790 --> 01:45:44,320 touched upon which 2952 01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:46,800 in um i think nicely follows on from 2953 01:45:49,590 --> 01:45:47,920 this notion of the 2954 01:45:52,070 --> 01:45:49,600 you know getting the generative model 2955 01:45:53,830 --> 01:45:52,080 right so if you remember the 2956 01:45:55,750 --> 01:45:53,840 free energy functional or the model 2957 01:45:57,430 --> 01:45:55,760 evidence needs a model 2958 01:45:59,270 --> 01:45:57,440 in order to have so the model can have 2959 01:46:01,590 --> 01:45:59,280 the evidence 2960 01:46:02,709 --> 01:46:01,600 and of course you know most of the time 2961 01:46:06,390 --> 01:46:02,719 you're dealing with 2962 01:46:08,550 --> 01:46:06,400 models that have unknown states such as 2963 01:46:10,870 --> 01:46:08,560 models that underwrite things like 2964 01:46:13,350 --> 01:46:10,880 kalman filters 2965 01:46:16,070 --> 01:46:13,360 unknown parameters such as the generated 2966 01:46:19,189 --> 01:46:16,080 models that might do weather forecasting 2967 01:46:21,189 --> 01:46:19,199 um but there's another level which is 2968 01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:21,199 the very structure of the model itself 2969 01:46:24,790 --> 01:46:21,760 so 2970 01:46:28,229 --> 01:46:24,800 you know even um 2971 01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:28,239 even if i knew all the states um the 2972 01:46:31,109 --> 01:46:28,639 time 2973 01:46:32,229 --> 01:46:31,119 varying unknowns generated by a 2974 01:46:34,550 --> 01:46:32,239 particular model 2975 01:46:35,270 --> 01:46:34,560 and even if i knew exactly all the 2976 01:46:37,109 --> 01:46:35,280 particular 2977 01:46:38,830 --> 01:46:37,119 connections strengths and rate constants 2978 01:46:40,149 --> 01:46:38,840 and every all the other parameters and 2979 01:46:42,310 --> 01:46:40,159 contingencies i 2980 01:46:43,830 --> 01:46:42,320 you would need to know to uh to make 2981 01:46:46,790 --> 01:46:43,840 this model predict the perfect 2982 01:46:47,830 --> 01:46:46,800 data perfect explanation for for for 2983 01:46:51,030 --> 01:46:47,840 these 2984 01:46:52,629 --> 01:46:51,040 for this observed world 2985 01:46:54,550 --> 01:46:52,639 i may not know the structure of the 2986 01:46:55,270 --> 01:46:54,560 model so if i was doing say deep 2987 01:46:57,430 --> 01:46:55,280 learning 2988 01:46:59,030 --> 01:46:57,440 and i wanted to build um a deep 2989 01:47:00,229 --> 01:46:59,040 convolutional network how many how many 2990 01:47:03,430 --> 01:47:00,239 layers do i use 2991 01:47:05,030 --> 01:47:03,440 two four eight sixteen um 2992 01:47:07,030 --> 01:47:05,040 so these are really important 2993 01:47:08,629 --> 01:47:07,040 architectural structural problems that 2994 01:47:10,629 --> 01:47:08,639 are attributes of the model 2995 01:47:11,669 --> 01:47:10,639 but the model can always be scored given 2996 01:47:14,790 --> 01:47:11,679 some data 2997 01:47:16,149 --> 01:47:14,800 in terms of its free energy or elbow 2998 01:47:19,030 --> 01:47:16,159 evidence lower bound 2999 01:47:19,910 --> 01:47:19,040 which means there's always an answer if 3000 01:47:22,870 --> 01:47:19,920 you can 3001 01:47:23,910 --> 01:47:22,880 create a space of models to evaluate so 3002 01:47:25,669 --> 01:47:23,920 this is known as in 3003 01:47:28,629 --> 01:47:25,679 in cognitive neuroscience by people like 3004 01:47:30,790 --> 01:47:28,639 josh turner bound as structure learning 3005 01:47:32,870 --> 01:47:30,800 and it's the problem of basically 3006 01:47:33,270 --> 01:47:32,880 exploring the right structure of models 3007 01:47:34,790 --> 01:47:33,280 by 3008 01:47:36,870 --> 01:47:34,800 you're adding things in taking things 3009 01:47:39,189 --> 01:47:36,880 away collapsing things together you 3010 01:47:41,350 --> 01:47:39,199 talked about modularity before 3011 01:47:43,350 --> 01:47:41,360 that's a really important architectural 3012 01:47:45,669 --> 01:47:43,360 uh aspect of these models 3013 01:47:48,149 --> 01:47:45,679 usually cast in terms of factorization 3014 01:47:48,470 --> 01:47:48,159 uh exploiting conditional dependencies 3015 01:47:51,030 --> 01:47:48,480 to 3016 01:47:52,950 --> 01:47:51,040 get simpler models that you can have a 3017 01:47:53,669 --> 01:47:52,960 modular architecture in the generator 3018 01:47:55,830 --> 01:47:53,679 model 3019 01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:55,840 um so all of these structural the 3020 01:48:00,229 --> 01:47:57,760 hierarchical depth the degree of 3021 01:48:01,910 --> 01:48:00,239 lateral factorization or modularity the 3022 01:48:04,070 --> 01:48:01,920 number of parallel streams 3023 01:48:05,590 --> 01:48:04,080 the number of nonlinearities all of 3024 01:48:07,430 --> 01:48:05,600 these things 3025 01:48:09,750 --> 01:48:07,440 need to be optimized to get the good 3026 01:48:11,830 --> 01:48:09,760 model the free energy minimizing model 3027 01:48:13,669 --> 01:48:11,840 so how would you do that and it's at 3028 01:48:16,070 --> 01:48:13,679 this point that you come back to 3029 01:48:18,310 --> 01:48:16,080 disorder and chaos so one really 3030 01:48:19,430 --> 01:48:18,320 efficient way of exploring a space of 3031 01:48:23,109 --> 01:48:19,440 models 3032 01:48:26,390 --> 01:48:23,119 is to actually exploit the um 3033 01:48:29,590 --> 01:48:26,400 the you know the the the um 3034 01:48:31,510 --> 01:48:29,600 the chaotic dynamics that you get um 3035 01:48:33,669 --> 01:48:31,520 or certainly stochastic dynamics that 3036 01:48:36,950 --> 01:48:33,679 you that you get for example 3037 01:48:39,030 --> 01:48:36,960 um in natural um selection um 3038 01:48:41,109 --> 01:48:39,040 the you know you could you could you 3039 01:48:43,510 --> 01:48:41,119 could um 3040 01:48:45,430 --> 01:48:43,520 take arguments from uh evolutionary 3041 01:48:46,310 --> 01:48:45,440 theory and again coming back to stu 3042 01:48:48,390 --> 01:48:46,320 kaufman 3043 01:48:50,070 --> 01:48:48,400 um in terms of his formulation of 3044 01:48:52,070 --> 01:48:50,080 selection for selectability 3045 01:48:54,070 --> 01:48:52,080 i don't know have you come across this 3046 01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:54,080 second order selection 3047 01:48:58,550 --> 01:48:55,760 no actually the way that i encountered 3048 01:49:01,030 --> 01:48:58,560 stuart kaufman was reading about his 3049 01:49:02,550 --> 01:49:01,040 expansion of schrodinger's what is life 3050 01:49:03,830 --> 01:49:02,560 and then schrodinger opposed to three 3051 01:49:05,109 --> 01:49:03,840 questions that is how 3052 01:49:07,830 --> 01:49:05,119 whatever he posts three questions and 3053 01:49:09,990 --> 01:49:07,840 stuart kaufman answers the second 3054 01:49:11,430 --> 01:49:10,000 two so two and three all right i didn't 3055 01:49:13,189 --> 01:49:11,440 read much about him afterward and i'll 3056 01:49:14,390 --> 01:49:13,199 ask you about start afterwards but do 3057 01:49:15,510 --> 01:49:14,400 you what do you have to tell me what the 3058 01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:15,520 questions well that sounds very 3059 01:49:18,709 --> 01:49:16,080 interesting 3060 01:49:19,189 --> 01:49:18,719 yeah sure i i'm talking about his work 3061 01:49:23,510 --> 01:49:19,199 um 3062 01:49:25,750 --> 01:49:23,520 artificial life 3063 01:49:26,550 --> 01:49:25,760 um that speaks to this edge of chaos and 3064 01:49:30,149 --> 01:49:26,560 the 3065 01:49:32,550 --> 01:49:30,159 in any 3066 01:49:33,990 --> 01:49:32,560 evolving system that needs to explore 3067 01:49:36,950 --> 01:49:34,000 different ways of being 3068 01:49:37,910 --> 01:49:36,960 um so it's interesting because of course 3069 01:49:40,950 --> 01:49:37,920 you can now 3070 01:49:42,550 --> 01:49:40,960 um the degree of um 3071 01:49:45,669 --> 01:49:42,560 chaos that you bring to the table the 3072 01:49:48,070 --> 01:49:45,679 degree of mutation for example 3073 01:49:50,149 --> 01:49:48,080 you know um there will be an optimum 3074 01:49:51,750 --> 01:49:50,159 degree of mutation that depends upon the 3075 01:49:54,149 --> 01:49:51,760 volatility of the environment 3076 01:49:54,950 --> 01:49:54,159 and the degree at which you exploit or 3077 01:49:58,229 --> 01:49:54,960 leverage 3078 01:49:59,109 --> 01:49:58,239 chaos now becomes subject to selected 3079 01:50:02,390 --> 01:49:59,119 pressure 3080 01:50:03,430 --> 01:50:02,400 um and um just as an aside you can 3081 01:50:05,350 --> 01:50:03,440 always recast 3082 01:50:06,629 --> 01:50:05,360 selective pressure as basically a 3083 01:50:08,790 --> 01:50:06,639 pressure to minimize 3084 01:50:10,870 --> 01:50:08,800 free energy uh if you read free energy 3085 01:50:11,910 --> 01:50:10,880 as the you know the adaptive fitness of 3086 01:50:14,950 --> 01:50:11,920 any of any 3087 01:50:17,030 --> 01:50:14,960 uh phenotype in a in a 3088 01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:17,040 natural setting natural selection so 3089 01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:19,040 what he's saying is that there is 3090 01:50:24,790 --> 01:50:22,080 an optimal degree of um 3091 01:50:26,870 --> 01:50:24,800 changeability and chaotic exploration of 3092 01:50:30,709 --> 01:50:26,880 of any modern space or any wave 3093 01:50:31,990 --> 01:50:30,719 wave being um the to my mind provides a 3094 01:50:35,030 --> 01:50:32,000 very nice 3095 01:50:36,870 --> 01:50:35,040 um perspective on this tendency for 3096 01:50:39,270 --> 01:50:36,880 self-organized criticality that 3097 01:50:40,149 --> 01:50:39,280 we actually move ourselves to the edge 3098 01:50:41,750 --> 01:50:40,159 of chaos 3099 01:50:43,910 --> 01:50:41,760 just to position ourselves so we can 3100 01:50:46,149 --> 01:50:43,920 explore and make sure there are no 3101 01:50:47,669 --> 01:50:46,159 better ways of doing things so i think 3102 01:50:49,990 --> 01:50:47,679 that that that aspect of 3103 01:50:52,070 --> 01:50:50,000 your own the right mixture of order 3104 01:50:55,270 --> 01:50:52,080 versus disorder 3105 01:50:57,109 --> 01:50:55,280 order versus chaos you know comes at out 3106 01:50:58,310 --> 01:50:57,119 at the level of the structured learning 3107 01:51:00,790 --> 01:50:58,320 itself from the sort of 3108 01:51:02,310 --> 01:51:00,800 the repertoires of different alternative 3109 01:51:04,070 --> 01:51:02,320 hypotheses about 3110 01:51:06,229 --> 01:51:04,080 you know modeling our world or making 3111 01:51:08,229 --> 01:51:06,239 making decisions in that world 3112 01:51:09,750 --> 01:51:08,239 okay when we're modeling this world most 3113 01:51:10,310 --> 01:51:09,760 of the time what we do is we look at 3114 01:51:11,830 --> 01:51:10,320 nature 3115 01:51:13,270 --> 01:51:11,840 and then we see principles and then 3116 01:51:14,149 --> 01:51:13,280 sometimes we can infer about the brain 3117 01:51:15,910 --> 01:51:14,159 so 3118 01:51:16,950 --> 01:51:15,920 let's say we understand how atoms 3119 01:51:18,870 --> 01:51:16,960 assemble then we understand the 3120 01:51:20,790 --> 01:51:18,880 molecules symbol then we understand 3121 01:51:22,550 --> 01:51:20,800 cells and so on so obviously it's not as 3122 01:51:24,470 --> 01:51:22,560 simple as that but then 3123 01:51:26,229 --> 01:51:24,480 you in one of your interviews posed 3124 01:51:28,070 --> 01:51:26,239 another mechanism that is that we can 3125 01:51:30,550 --> 01:51:28,080 look at the brain structures 3126 01:51:32,470 --> 01:51:30,560 and we can infer about the world so for 3127 01:51:33,669 --> 01:51:32,480 example i believe you said that the fact 3128 01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:33,679 that an axon 3129 01:51:36,950 --> 01:51:35,760 is long and reaches out is a reflection 3130 01:51:38,870 --> 01:51:36,960 of 3131 01:51:40,950 --> 01:51:38,880 spooky action at a distance or action at 3132 01:51:43,669 --> 01:51:40,960 a distance and then i was thinking well 3133 01:51:44,629 --> 01:51:43,679 what about the hierarchical structures 3134 01:51:46,629 --> 01:51:44,639 of 3135 01:51:47,669 --> 01:51:46,639 pyramidal neurons do they reflect that 3136 01:51:50,550 --> 01:51:47,679 our world is 3137 01:51:52,070 --> 01:51:50,560 hierarchical and first of all why would 3138 01:51:53,189 --> 01:51:52,080 that be the case why does it have to be 3139 01:51:54,470 --> 01:51:53,199 mirrored second of all 3140 01:51:56,550 --> 01:51:54,480 there's another structure that is the 3141 01:51:57,350 --> 01:51:56,560 biohemispheric structure of the brain so 3142 01:51:59,430 --> 01:51:57,360 one is 3143 01:52:01,350 --> 01:51:59,440 i know there's a fair bit of myths about 3144 01:52:03,430 --> 01:52:01,360 the brain left brain versus right brain 3145 01:52:05,350 --> 01:52:03,440 but there's also some truth to some 3146 01:52:07,910 --> 01:52:05,360 parts of that now ian mcgillcrist 3147 01:52:08,950 --> 01:52:07,920 i'm sure you're aware of his work or his 3148 01:52:11,990 --> 01:52:08,960 name sounds familiar 3149 01:52:12,629 --> 01:52:12,000 he explored that as well so my question 3150 01:52:15,189 --> 01:52:12,639 is 3151 01:52:16,870 --> 01:52:15,199 what can you infer well why does it have 3152 01:52:18,310 --> 01:52:16,880 to be the case that your 3153 01:52:19,910 --> 01:52:18,320 internal structure of your brain would 3154 01:52:21,910 --> 01:52:19,920 mirror reality in some manner 3155 01:52:24,229 --> 01:52:21,920 and second what about the biohemispheric 3156 01:52:27,990 --> 01:52:24,239 structure what does that say about our 3157 01:52:29,510 --> 01:52:28,000 world okay well that that's a 3158 01:52:30,870 --> 01:52:29,520 really good question which could you 3159 01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:30,880 know could take us in a number of 3160 01:52:35,910 --> 01:52:32,239 different directions 3161 01:52:39,430 --> 01:52:35,920 um the notion that the 3162 01:52:42,470 --> 01:52:39,440 if you are in the game of um 3163 01:52:44,950 --> 01:52:42,480 predicting minimizing surprise 3164 01:52:46,470 --> 01:52:44,960 through the lens of minimizing 3165 01:52:48,550 --> 01:52:46,480 prediction error 3166 01:52:49,830 --> 01:52:48,560 then you want to generate a model that 3167 01:52:52,550 --> 01:52:49,840 can faithfully but 3168 01:52:54,550 --> 01:52:52,560 simply reproduce the kind of sensory 3169 01:52:55,589 --> 01:52:54,560 data sensory impressions that the world 3170 01:52:58,709 --> 01:52:55,599 is generating 3171 01:53:01,830 --> 01:52:58,719 so the formal structure of the 3172 01:53:03,709 --> 01:53:01,840 process that generates the sensory input 3173 01:53:04,870 --> 01:53:03,719 has to be to a certain level 3174 01:53:07,430 --> 01:53:04,880 recapitulated 3175 01:53:07,990 --> 01:53:07,440 on the inside in order to generate and 3176 01:53:10,790 --> 01:53:08,000 afford 3177 01:53:11,589 --> 01:53:10,800 those the right kind of predictions so 3178 01:53:14,790 --> 01:53:11,599 that is 3179 01:53:17,510 --> 01:53:14,800 a statement um uh really 3180 01:53:18,550 --> 01:53:17,520 i think um the good regulator theorem 3181 01:53:21,830 --> 01:53:18,560 which which arose 3182 01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:21,840 towards the end of the the cybernetics 3183 01:53:28,390 --> 01:53:25,440 movement by people um like ross ashby 3184 01:53:30,149 --> 01:53:28,400 um uh sort of you know regarded myself 3185 01:53:31,669 --> 01:53:30,159 as a father of self-organization this 3186 01:53:34,470 --> 01:53:31,679 notion that 3187 01:53:35,669 --> 01:53:34,480 every system that controls or regulates 3188 01:53:38,390 --> 01:53:35,679 its environment 3189 01:53:39,189 --> 01:53:38,400 must in essence be a model of that 3190 01:53:41,430 --> 01:53:39,199 environment 3191 01:53:42,310 --> 01:53:41,440 so there's an isomorphism between the 3192 01:53:45,350 --> 01:53:42,320 controller 3193 01:53:45,990 --> 01:53:45,360 and the controlled and that certainly is 3194 01:53:48,790 --> 01:53:46,000 the case 3195 01:53:49,350 --> 01:53:48,800 um uh is it sorry to interrupt i'm so 3196 01:53:52,070 --> 01:53:49,360 sorry 3197 01:53:53,669 --> 01:53:52,080 is it an isomorphism like is it exactly 3198 01:53:55,589 --> 01:53:53,679 mirrored because i recall when i was 3199 01:53:57,750 --> 01:53:55,599 speaking to bernardo castro he said 3200 01:53:59,030 --> 01:53:57,760 we can't model our reality exactly 3201 01:54:00,790 --> 01:53:59,040 because if we did 3202 01:54:02,149 --> 01:54:00,800 we would dissolve into an entropic soup 3203 01:54:04,310 --> 01:54:02,159 and then i said what do you mean and 3204 01:54:06,709 --> 01:54:04,320 then he said the argument was 3205 01:54:09,109 --> 01:54:06,719 it was too convoluted for him to state 3206 01:54:09,669 --> 01:54:09,119 at the time and i think he was referring 3207 01:54:12,149 --> 01:54:09,679 to you 3208 01:54:12,950 --> 01:54:12,159 so is it isomorphic or is it just no 3209 01:54:14,950 --> 01:54:12,960 you're absolutely 3210 01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:14,960 it's certainly not isomorphic because as 3211 01:54:18,149 --> 01:54:16,480 you save you if you want 3212 01:54:19,750 --> 01:54:18,159 i mean the best model in the world is 3213 01:54:20,629 --> 01:54:19,760 the world itself i mean that's that's a 3214 01:54:23,669 --> 01:54:20,639 tourism whichever 3215 01:54:26,790 --> 01:54:23,679 everyone celebrates and so um 3216 01:54:28,390 --> 01:54:26,800 no it's a it's a sufficiently good model 3217 01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:28,400 or an ultimately good model in the sense 3218 01:54:33,510 --> 01:54:29,840 that it's the simplest 3219 01:54:35,109 --> 01:54:33,520 um caricature of the system 3220 01:54:36,870 --> 01:54:35,119 or parts of the system the subspace 3221 01:54:39,669 --> 01:54:36,880 you're trying to control so 3222 01:54:40,390 --> 01:54:39,679 you know i still think it's um useful to 3223 01:54:43,430 --> 01:54:40,400 consider 3224 01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:43,440 um the good regulator theorem um 3225 01:54:47,109 --> 01:54:45,760 but you're right it's not not isomorphic 3226 01:54:48,870 --> 01:54:47,119 in any sense it's 3227 01:54:50,709 --> 01:54:48,880 an even lesser when you when you 3228 01:54:51,189 --> 01:54:50,719 consider that a lot of the time we 3229 01:54:54,229 --> 01:54:51,199 actually 3230 01:54:56,390 --> 01:54:54,239 build our own sensations when we move um 3231 01:54:57,270 --> 01:54:56,400 and certainly in terms of sensing our 3232 01:55:00,310 --> 01:54:57,280 own body 3233 01:55:04,310 --> 01:55:00,320 uh you know we are in charge of 3234 01:55:06,790 --> 01:55:04,320 basically creating that sensorium um 3235 01:55:08,950 --> 01:55:06,800 however let's just stick to the to your 3236 01:55:11,109 --> 01:55:08,960 original question 3237 01:55:12,790 --> 01:55:11,119 you know so no it's not it's not an 3238 01:55:15,350 --> 01:55:12,800 isomorphic but it certainly 3239 01:55:16,070 --> 01:55:15,360 has the right architecture to be able to 3240 01:55:17,990 --> 01:55:16,080 produce 3241 01:55:19,189 --> 01:55:18,000 a simplified summary or prediction of 3242 01:55:22,310 --> 01:55:19,199 what's going on 3243 01:55:24,709 --> 01:55:22,320 that is conserved every time around so 3244 01:55:25,510 --> 01:55:24,719 you're only interested in predicting um 3245 01:55:27,109 --> 01:55:25,520 things on 3246 01:55:28,870 --> 01:55:27,119 average so that you're revisiting 3247 01:55:30,870 --> 01:55:28,880 particular states so 3248 01:55:31,990 --> 01:55:30,880 you just need to get the gist of what's 3249 01:55:33,990 --> 01:55:32,000 going on 3250 01:55:35,750 --> 01:55:34,000 so it's a much simpler one but it still 3251 01:55:36,950 --> 01:55:35,760 must fundamentally have the same kind of 3252 01:55:39,030 --> 01:55:36,960 causal architecture 3253 01:55:40,070 --> 01:55:39,040 the same conditional dependencies and 3254 01:55:42,550 --> 01:55:40,080 you've highlighted 3255 01:55:43,109 --> 01:55:42,560 um a really important one which is the 3256 01:55:45,270 --> 01:55:43,119 um 3257 01:55:46,550 --> 01:55:45,280 the the symmetry between our two 3258 01:55:50,550 --> 01:55:46,560 hemispheres 3259 01:55:52,629 --> 01:55:50,560 the um you also mentioned this this um 3260 01:55:53,830 --> 01:55:52,639 which i've forgotten about which is the 3261 01:55:57,109 --> 01:55:53,840 or the very existence 3262 01:55:59,990 --> 01:55:57,119 of neural processes long thin 3263 01:56:01,189 --> 01:56:00,000 connections um that our neurons are 3264 01:56:03,270 --> 01:56:01,199 equipped with which you won't find 3265 01:56:05,830 --> 01:56:03,280 anywhere else in any other organ 3266 01:56:06,709 --> 01:56:05,840 um you know the liver doesn't have them 3267 01:56:11,350 --> 01:56:06,719 the 3268 01:56:14,390 --> 01:56:11,360 and long 3269 01:56:16,310 --> 01:56:14,400 um which which you know just reading 3270 01:56:18,310 --> 01:56:16,320 the structure of the generative model is 3271 01:56:19,109 --> 01:56:18,320 telling you something about the kind of 3272 01:56:20,709 --> 01:56:19,119 universe 3273 01:56:22,310 --> 01:56:20,719 that's generating the data that this 3274 01:56:23,589 --> 01:56:22,320 model is trying to predict 3275 01:56:25,350 --> 01:56:23,599 tells you immediately you've got action 3276 01:56:28,310 --> 01:56:25,360 at a distance 3277 01:56:30,149 --> 01:56:28,320 which is not necessarily a given um but 3278 01:56:33,189 --> 01:56:30,159 it tells you that this creature 3279 01:56:35,109 --> 01:56:33,199 must contend with a world where there's 3280 01:56:36,870 --> 01:56:35,119 some kind of action at a distance 3281 01:56:38,390 --> 01:56:36,880 it can see things in the distance for 3282 01:56:41,109 --> 01:56:38,400 example so 3283 01:56:42,470 --> 01:56:41,119 you know the contention would be if you 3284 01:56:45,830 --> 01:56:42,480 had a 3285 01:56:49,030 --> 01:56:45,840 um a worm that could not 3286 01:56:51,350 --> 01:56:49,040 um see things at a distance then it 3287 01:56:53,430 --> 01:56:51,360 probably wouldn't have very long axons 3288 01:56:54,870 --> 01:56:53,440 um and it would be quite comfortable 3289 01:56:56,550 --> 01:56:54,880 having lots of short range 3290 01:56:58,229 --> 01:56:56,560 axons they were quite sufficient for 3291 01:57:00,310 --> 01:56:58,239 modeling a world where it's just 3292 01:57:01,830 --> 01:57:00,320 immediate contact and short-range 3293 01:57:05,430 --> 01:57:01,840 causality that's generating 3294 01:57:07,189 --> 01:57:05,440 its sensations okay 3295 01:57:08,950 --> 01:57:07,199 quick question so i'm speaking to a 3296 01:57:10,709 --> 01:57:08,960 camera right now and its sensor is 3297 01:57:12,790 --> 01:57:10,719 fairly flat 3298 01:57:14,310 --> 01:57:12,800 and yet it can pick up from far away it 3299 01:57:16,149 --> 01:57:14,320 can pick up a mountain 3300 01:57:17,669 --> 01:57:16,159 now i understand that the camera isn't 3301 01:57:19,510 --> 01:57:17,679 acting on the world are you saying that 3302 01:57:20,550 --> 01:57:19,520 if it was to have some embodied 3303 01:57:21,910 --> 01:57:20,560 enactment then 3304 01:57:23,990 --> 01:57:21,920 well it wouldn't use this sensor in the 3305 01:57:25,589 --> 01:57:24,000 way that it's formulated right now it 3306 01:57:27,990 --> 01:57:25,599 would use axons in some way 3307 01:57:28,790 --> 01:57:28,000 would use long wires in some way you'd 3308 01:57:31,270 --> 01:57:28,800 um 3309 01:57:32,790 --> 01:57:31,280 if you actually well okay let's pursue 3310 01:57:35,910 --> 01:57:32,800 that that analogy then so 3311 01:57:37,270 --> 01:57:35,920 um so you know let's pursue assume 3312 01:57:42,790 --> 01:57:37,280 you're going to be using 3313 01:57:50,229 --> 01:57:47,350 computer graphics to generate um um 3314 01:57:51,830 --> 01:57:50,239 you know um a visual scene that you 3315 01:57:54,070 --> 01:57:51,840 could 3316 01:57:56,550 --> 01:57:54,080 use in a movie so what that would 3317 01:57:59,430 --> 01:57:56,560 necessitate is basically a machine 3318 01:58:00,790 --> 01:57:59,440 with lots of wires because it's all 3319 01:58:04,629 --> 01:58:00,800 action at a distance 3320 01:58:07,669 --> 01:58:04,639 so you couldn't do it on a a computer 3321 01:58:10,950 --> 01:58:07,679 um that didn't have big buses 3322 01:58:14,229 --> 01:58:10,960 and the ability to to move data around 3323 01:58:17,270 --> 01:58:14,239 um in a way that would recapitulate 3324 01:58:20,550 --> 01:58:17,280 the um the action at a distance 3325 01:58:23,669 --> 01:58:20,560 that is necessary for um 3326 01:58:30,229 --> 01:58:26,870 vgi so particularly sort of um you know 3327 01:58:34,470 --> 01:58:30,239 the ray tracing that's required um to 3328 01:58:36,550 --> 01:58:34,480 to basically you know render a scene 3329 01:58:37,910 --> 01:58:36,560 you know that's massively com you know 3330 01:58:41,109 --> 01:58:37,920 computer intensive that 3331 01:58:43,270 --> 01:58:41,119 requires a lot of if you like hardware 3332 01:58:44,709 --> 01:58:43,280 that you cannot do with just local 3333 01:58:45,109 --> 01:58:44,719 computing you actually have to do lots 3334 01:58:49,910 --> 01:58:45,119 of 3335 01:58:50,390 --> 01:58:49,920 architectures that computer scientists 3336 01:58:55,669 --> 01:58:50,400 would 3337 01:58:58,550 --> 01:58:55,679 certain computations you can do 3338 01:59:00,390 --> 01:58:58,560 um without sort of the other the kinds 3339 01:59:01,350 --> 01:59:00,400 of architectures you'd find in computer 3340 01:59:04,229 --> 01:59:01,360 science 3341 01:59:05,030 --> 01:59:04,239 that just involve local interactions but 3342 01:59:07,830 --> 01:59:05,040 as soon as you 3343 01:59:08,790 --> 01:59:07,840 have to actually generate virtual worlds 3344 01:59:11,830 --> 01:59:08,800 or worlds 3345 01:59:13,669 --> 01:59:11,840 um that they entail action distance you 3346 01:59:15,669 --> 01:59:13,679 get a different kind of connectivity 3347 01:59:17,030 --> 01:59:15,679 and a different kind of structure so 3348 01:59:17,589 --> 01:59:17,040 that's all i was really trying to 3349 01:59:23,109 --> 01:59:17,599 intimate 3350 01:59:25,910 --> 01:59:23,119 my favorite example is is before we turn 3351 01:59:29,109 --> 01:59:25,920 to the into hemispheric one is the um 3352 01:59:31,669 --> 01:59:29,119 a a a differentiation between a 3353 01:59:34,310 --> 01:59:31,679 a dorsal stream and a ventral stream 3354 01:59:37,510 --> 01:59:34,320 primarily concerned with what things are 3355 01:59:38,870 --> 01:59:37,520 and where they are and this speaks to 3356 01:59:40,709 --> 01:59:38,880 that modularity that we were talking 3357 01:59:44,390 --> 01:59:40,719 about earlier on that 3358 01:59:47,830 --> 01:59:44,400 somehow our brain has found 3359 01:59:49,990 --> 01:59:47,840 a really simplifying device to create a 3360 01:59:52,149 --> 01:59:50,000 modular architecture by 3361 01:59:53,990 --> 01:59:52,159 leveraging the conditional independences 3362 01:59:55,830 --> 01:59:54,000 between whatnots and awareness 3363 01:59:57,109 --> 01:59:55,840 in objects in the kind of universe we 3364 01:59:59,270 --> 01:59:57,119 live in so 3365 02:00:00,390 --> 01:59:59,280 put that simply there you're knowing 3366 02:00:02,950 --> 02:00:00,400 that this is 3367 02:00:03,589 --> 02:00:02,960 a cup doesn't tell me where it is 3368 02:00:05,510 --> 02:00:03,599 knowing 3369 02:00:06,629 --> 02:00:05,520 something is over there doesn't tell me 3370 02:00:08,870 --> 02:00:06,639 what it is 3371 02:00:10,629 --> 02:00:08,880 so that means that if i'm trying to 3372 02:00:12,629 --> 02:00:10,639 generate predictions i only need 3373 02:00:14,390 --> 02:00:12,639 i can have one part of my brain doing 3374 02:00:15,750 --> 02:00:14,400 the whoppness and the other part of my 3375 02:00:17,510 --> 02:00:15,760 brain doing the awareness 3376 02:00:19,430 --> 02:00:17,520 and then i can bring them together to 3377 02:00:21,350 --> 02:00:19,440 actually explain the sensory input 3378 02:00:23,830 --> 02:00:21,360 and that keeping things apart keeping 3379 02:00:25,189 --> 02:00:23,840 these parallel parallel streams apart 3380 02:00:26,870 --> 02:00:25,199 means i don't have to have the 3381 02:00:28,310 --> 02:00:26,880 complexity cost of all 3382 02:00:30,390 --> 02:00:28,320 the connections between them i don't 3383 02:00:31,350 --> 02:00:30,400 have to represent every object in every 3384 02:00:34,790 --> 02:00:31,360 position 3385 02:00:37,030 --> 02:00:34,800 in the world i can just represent um 3386 02:00:37,830 --> 02:00:37,040 your what it is and where it is and then 3387 02:00:39,910 --> 02:00:37,840 just bring the 3388 02:00:41,270 --> 02:00:39,920 bring them together as part of my 3389 02:00:42,709 --> 02:00:41,280 genitive models so that 3390 02:00:45,510 --> 02:00:42,719 that you know that tells you something 3391 02:00:47,910 --> 02:00:45,520 quite fundamental if i find a brain 3392 02:00:48,629 --> 02:00:47,920 that has this segregation into what and 3393 02:00:50,229 --> 02:00:48,639 where 3394 02:00:51,750 --> 02:00:50,239 i know that they live in a world of 3395 02:00:54,310 --> 02:00:51,760 objects where they 3396 02:00:55,910 --> 02:00:54,320 in their universe things don't really 3397 02:00:56,870 --> 02:00:55,920 things are conserved when they move 3398 02:01:00,870 --> 02:00:56,880 around 3399 02:01:03,270 --> 02:01:00,880 ah aha interesting 3400 02:01:04,709 --> 02:01:03,280 so um that brings us to the delicate 3401 02:01:05,189 --> 02:01:04,719 issue of why we've got symmetrical 3402 02:01:06,950 --> 02:01:05,199 brains 3403 02:01:08,470 --> 02:01:06,960 i think quite simply because we got 3404 02:01:12,070 --> 02:01:08,480 symmetrical bodies 3405 02:01:13,430 --> 02:01:12,080 um i think that you know 3406 02:01:14,950 --> 02:01:13,440 but then you may be asking why we've got 3407 02:01:16,229 --> 02:01:14,960 symmetrical bodies but sorry i'm not 3408 02:01:17,830 --> 02:01:16,239 going to try to answer that 3409 02:01:19,350 --> 02:01:17,840 well i was actually referring to the 3410 02:01:22,709 --> 02:01:19,360 asymmetry of the brains 3411 02:01:24,310 --> 02:01:22,719 all right that the left as let's say 3412 02:01:26,149 --> 02:01:24,320 ian mcgilchrist would say that the left 3413 02:01:27,109 --> 02:01:26,159 is more concerned with manipulation and 3414 02:01:29,910 --> 02:01:27,119 pinpointing 3415 02:01:32,310 --> 02:01:29,920 making definitive and the right is more 3416 02:01:33,990 --> 02:01:32,320 concerned with exploratory 3417 02:01:36,070 --> 02:01:34,000 motion so even actually at night time 3418 02:01:37,990 --> 02:01:36,080 when you're looking for your watch 3419 02:01:39,350 --> 02:01:38,000 or your clock you actually explore with 3420 02:01:40,709 --> 02:01:39,360 your 3421 02:01:42,390 --> 02:01:40,719 left hand because it's controlled by the 3422 02:01:44,149 --> 02:01:42,400 right brain naturally 3423 02:01:45,510 --> 02:01:44,159 you move you make more exploratory 3424 02:01:46,790 --> 02:01:45,520 movements with your left i'm not saying 3425 02:01:48,149 --> 02:01:46,800 anything you probably don't know 3426 02:01:49,990 --> 02:01:48,159 and then with your right most people are 3427 02:01:53,189 --> 02:01:50,000 right-handed and they like 3428 02:01:55,270 --> 02:01:53,199 to well whatever so then i was wondering 3429 02:01:57,750 --> 02:01:55,280 is that a reflection of what the world 3430 02:01:58,390 --> 02:01:57,760 is composed of or comprises in some 3431 02:01:59,990 --> 02:01:58,400 manner 3432 02:02:02,149 --> 02:02:00,000 and then also how does one know when one 3433 02:02:03,270 --> 02:02:02,159 is taking this too far so for example 3434 02:02:05,270 --> 02:02:03,280 just because the brain has a 3435 02:02:06,950 --> 02:02:05,280 morphological structure of foldiness and 3436 02:02:10,229 --> 02:02:06,960 gyruses and sulky and so on 3437 02:02:14,310 --> 02:02:10,239 doesn't mean the world is full d 3438 02:02:15,750 --> 02:02:14,320 or my experience is hilly 3439 02:02:18,870 --> 02:02:15,760 how does one know when to apply it and 3440 02:02:20,870 --> 02:02:18,880 when not to 3441 02:02:22,790 --> 02:02:20,880 so i was just you know thinking about 3442 02:02:25,030 --> 02:02:22,800 all your challenging questions 3443 02:02:26,950 --> 02:02:25,040 one by one um well i like the one about 3444 02:02:27,510 --> 02:02:26,960 the the world isn't folding that's very 3445 02:02:32,310 --> 02:02:27,520 nice 3446 02:02:33,910 --> 02:02:32,320 um uh and mystically one can make an 3447 02:02:36,070 --> 02:02:33,920 an analogy and say well the world is 3448 02:02:37,350 --> 02:02:36,080 complex and fractal-like and nothing is 3449 02:02:38,870 --> 02:02:37,360 ever the same and 3450 02:02:41,270 --> 02:02:38,880 and you can look at it from multiple 3451 02:02:43,189 --> 02:02:41,280 vantage points so it sounds to me more 3452 02:02:45,430 --> 02:02:43,199 like one is playing a linguistic game 3453 02:02:46,709 --> 02:02:45,440 in that example that i just gave rather 3454 02:02:49,189 --> 02:02:46,719 than actually giving 3455 02:02:49,750 --> 02:02:49,199 a property of the world that's reflected 3456 02:02:53,109 --> 02:02:49,760 in the 3457 02:02:55,030 --> 02:02:53,119 morphology of the brain yes yes um so i 3458 02:02:57,189 --> 02:02:55,040 i'd also just remembered that 3459 02:02:58,470 --> 02:02:57,199 i saw a presentation by colleagues of 3460 02:03:00,950 --> 02:02:58,480 mine recently that 3461 02:03:01,830 --> 02:03:00,960 actually interestingly made the 3462 02:03:05,189 --> 02:03:01,840 foldiness 3463 02:03:07,270 --> 02:03:05,199 um a possible reality um 3464 02:03:09,109 --> 02:03:07,280 but that's a distraction and a unique 3465 02:03:11,189 --> 02:03:09,119 and very exciting observation 3466 02:03:12,149 --> 02:03:11,199 but you're right so when i'm talking 3467 02:03:14,629 --> 02:03:12,159 about structure 3468 02:03:16,070 --> 02:03:14,639 i the only structure that matters is the 3469 02:03:18,070 --> 02:03:16,080 same kind of structure 3470 02:03:19,350 --> 02:03:18,080 that underwrites a markov blanket is 3471 02:03:21,109 --> 02:03:19,360 conditional dependencies 3472 02:03:23,109 --> 02:03:21,119 so i'm talking about a connectivity 3473 02:03:25,350 --> 02:03:23,119 architecture here i'm not talking about 3474 02:03:27,030 --> 02:03:25,360 the physical shape of the brain i'm just 3475 02:03:28,229 --> 02:03:27,040 talking about what is connected to what 3476 02:03:31,350 --> 02:03:28,239 is not connected 3477 02:03:31,910 --> 02:03:31,360 um so you know you you all i need is the 3478 02:03:35,589 --> 02:03:31,920 graph 3479 02:03:37,109 --> 02:03:35,599 theoretician i just need the adjacency 3480 02:03:39,589 --> 02:03:37,119 machines on the connectivity 3481 02:03:40,950 --> 02:03:39,599 usually the directed connectivity matrix 3482 02:03:44,070 --> 02:03:40,960 that's for me is what 3483 02:03:47,589 --> 02:03:44,080 what defines the structure so um 3484 02:03:51,990 --> 02:03:47,599 you know at that level 3485 02:03:54,550 --> 02:03:52,000 um the kinds of structures 3486 02:03:55,270 --> 02:03:54,560 that can be defined purely in terms of 3487 02:03:59,030 --> 02:03:55,280 the 3488 02:04:02,629 --> 02:03:59,040 things 3489 02:04:05,270 --> 02:04:02,639 like um the number of hierarchies 3490 02:04:06,390 --> 02:04:05,280 or the number of parallel streams or the 3491 02:04:09,510 --> 02:04:06,400 number of 3492 02:04:12,950 --> 02:04:09,520 modular um um uh 3493 02:04:16,310 --> 02:04:12,960 the number of uh um modules 3494 02:04:18,470 --> 02:04:16,320 uh or or uh clusters you know the degree 3495 02:04:20,629 --> 02:04:18,480 of small world is if you if you like 3496 02:04:21,830 --> 02:04:20,639 uh clustering indices i can't remember 3497 02:04:25,109 --> 02:04:21,840 all the um 3498 02:04:27,189 --> 02:04:25,119 the graphic terms for them but crucially 3499 02:04:28,390 --> 02:04:27,199 it's just that defined in terms of 3500 02:04:31,510 --> 02:04:28,400 connectivity 3501 02:04:33,830 --> 02:04:31,520 and i think um i think you can you can 3502 02:04:34,550 --> 02:04:33,840 within that remit and without going into 3503 02:04:36,870 --> 02:04:34,560 the world is 3504 02:04:42,950 --> 02:04:36,880 doesn't have cortical folds you know i 3505 02:04:47,990 --> 02:04:46,069 within the remit of um 3506 02:04:49,990 --> 02:04:48,000 instantiating and biophysically 3507 02:04:53,350 --> 02:04:50,000 realizing 3508 02:04:56,390 --> 02:04:53,360 causal contingencies and associations uh 3509 02:04:58,149 --> 02:04:56,400 in terms of connections between um 3510 02:05:00,870 --> 02:04:58,159 biological systems in particular 3511 02:05:02,790 --> 02:05:00,880 neuronal systems i think i think you can 3512 02:05:05,270 --> 02:05:02,800 um i think you can actually play this 3513 02:05:07,430 --> 02:05:05,280 game and play it for quite a long time 3514 02:05:09,669 --> 02:05:07,440 in terms of the hierarchical depth and 3515 02:05:11,109 --> 02:05:09,679 in terms of this modularity and this 3516 02:05:12,629 --> 02:05:11,119 factorization that we're just talking 3517 02:05:13,669 --> 02:05:12,639 about and in particular the hierarchical 3518 02:05:15,750 --> 02:05:13,679 depth i think is 3519 02:05:17,189 --> 02:05:15,760 is a very important one because you know 3520 02:05:20,149 --> 02:05:17,199 you're asking me well why should the 3521 02:05:22,390 --> 02:05:20,159 world be hierarchically structured 3522 02:05:23,589 --> 02:05:22,400 but it is necessarily hierarchically 3523 02:05:25,830 --> 02:05:23,599 structured if one 3524 02:05:27,830 --> 02:05:25,840 um just considers a you know a 3525 02:05:31,830 --> 02:05:27,840 separation of temporal scales so 3526 02:05:34,950 --> 02:05:31,840 you know there just has to exist 3527 02:05:37,109 --> 02:05:34,960 in terms of a course grading um applied 3528 02:05:41,030 --> 02:05:37,119 to any dynamical system 3529 02:05:44,149 --> 02:05:41,040 um a progression of slower stuff 3530 02:05:44,709 --> 02:05:44,159 that is has a your more course grained 3531 02:05:48,310 --> 02:05:44,719 aspect 3532 02:05:51,350 --> 02:05:48,320 to it uh that you could add your know 3533 02:05:53,270 --> 02:05:51,360 you you could elaborate recursively um 3534 02:05:55,030 --> 02:05:53,280 you know in principle for you know for 3535 02:05:57,189 --> 02:05:55,040 an infinite number of levels 3536 02:05:58,229 --> 02:05:57,199 so there does exist causal structure out 3537 02:06:01,510 --> 02:05:58,239 there in 3538 02:06:04,709 --> 02:06:01,520 any sparsely connected um 3539 02:06:08,069 --> 02:06:04,719 in the dynamical sense 3540 02:06:09,870 --> 02:06:08,079 world that i think fully licenses an 3541 02:06:11,750 --> 02:06:09,880 interpretation of the corresponding 3542 02:06:13,189 --> 02:06:11,760 architecture 3543 02:06:15,270 --> 02:06:13,199 and in particular it's hierarchical 3544 02:06:17,030 --> 02:06:15,280 depth as somehow 3545 02:06:18,709 --> 02:06:17,040 mirroring or reflecting that 3546 02:06:21,510 --> 02:06:18,719 hierarchical structure out there 3547 02:06:22,629 --> 02:06:21,520 with the obvious example of course is is 3548 02:06:25,990 --> 02:06:22,639 um 3549 02:06:27,030 --> 02:06:26,000 all of that machinery that aspect of our 3550 02:06:29,750 --> 02:06:27,040 brains 3551 02:06:31,189 --> 02:06:29,760 that is devoted to providing an apt 3552 02:06:34,550 --> 02:06:31,199 generative model 3553 02:06:37,350 --> 02:06:34,560 for interpersonal interactions so 3554 02:06:37,990 --> 02:06:37,360 you know if one realizes that most of 3555 02:06:41,189 --> 02:06:38,000 our 3556 02:06:42,550 --> 02:06:41,199 lived world is or at least the 3557 02:06:45,510 --> 02:06:42,560 sensations 3558 02:06:46,870 --> 02:06:45,520 generated by that world are generated by 3559 02:06:49,510 --> 02:06:46,880 other creatures like me 3560 02:06:50,709 --> 02:06:49,520 namely you uh you know where they were 3561 02:06:54,069 --> 02:06:50,719 driving around in cars 3562 02:06:55,310 --> 02:06:54,079 walking in parks talking on zoom reading 3563 02:06:58,310 --> 02:06:55,320 books 3564 02:07:00,790 --> 02:06:58,320 99.9 of us our sensorim is 3565 02:07:01,910 --> 02:07:00,800 generated by another human being that is 3566 02:07:04,950 --> 02:07:01,920 like me 3567 02:07:05,990 --> 02:07:04,960 so that actually says there has to be a 3568 02:07:09,270 --> 02:07:06,000 lot of the 3569 02:07:11,669 --> 02:07:09,280 brain has to be devoted to modeling 3570 02:07:13,510 --> 02:07:11,679 me and people like me and making 3571 02:07:15,990 --> 02:07:13,520 inferences about me 3572 02:07:16,629 --> 02:07:16,000 and as soon as you start to get to this 3573 02:07:18,629 --> 02:07:16,639 um 3574 02:07:19,669 --> 02:07:18,639 think about what kinds of genitive 3575 02:07:23,109 --> 02:07:19,679 models would be 3576 02:07:25,189 --> 02:07:23,119 fit for purpose in in that context then 3577 02:07:26,229 --> 02:07:25,199 the imperatives to resolve uncertainty 3578 02:07:29,830 --> 02:07:26,239 are basically 3579 02:07:32,709 --> 02:07:29,840 the drives for me to understand you 3580 02:07:34,229 --> 02:07:32,719 so this epistemic part of the free 3581 02:07:36,870 --> 02:07:34,239 energy minimization 3582 02:07:37,669 --> 02:07:36,880 as a consequence of action translates 3583 02:07:39,430 --> 02:07:37,679 into 3584 02:07:40,709 --> 02:07:39,440 an imperative to understand the world 3585 02:07:42,709 --> 02:07:40,719 but the live world now with 3586 02:07:43,830 --> 02:07:42,719 is basically you in this instance i need 3587 02:07:45,109 --> 02:07:43,840 to understand you 3588 02:07:47,350 --> 02:07:45,119 how do i do that we have to have a 3589 02:07:48,390 --> 02:07:47,360 shared narrative what does that require 3590 02:07:50,149 --> 02:07:48,400 language 3591 02:07:53,030 --> 02:07:50,159 it could be maths it could be could be 3592 02:07:55,669 --> 02:07:53,040 english but that narrative has 3593 02:07:57,990 --> 02:07:55,679 many many different scales to it that 3594 02:08:00,390 --> 02:07:58,000 has itself a deep temporal structure 3595 02:08:01,030 --> 02:08:00,400 so there's the concept that i that we're 3596 02:08:02,709 --> 02:08:01,040 conveying 3597 02:08:04,229 --> 02:08:02,719 there's a temporal scale of the duration 3598 02:08:07,830 --> 02:08:04,239 of this of this 3599 02:08:08,790 --> 02:08:07,840 exchange there are much recursively much 3600 02:08:10,870 --> 02:08:08,800 finer 3601 02:08:12,390 --> 02:08:10,880 temporal structures in terms of the 3602 02:08:15,189 --> 02:08:12,400 structure of the sentence 3603 02:08:16,229 --> 02:08:15,199 the phrases that i'm using the words the 3604 02:08:17,910 --> 02:08:16,239 phonemes 3605 02:08:20,069 --> 02:08:17,920 all the way down to the millisecond by 3606 02:08:23,750 --> 02:08:20,079 millisecond 3607 02:08:26,069 --> 02:08:23,760 activation of your 3608 02:08:27,830 --> 02:08:26,079 sensory epithelia in your ears or my 3609 02:08:31,030 --> 02:08:27,840 neuromuscular junctions 3610 02:08:34,069 --> 02:08:31,040 controlling my articular articulatory 3611 02:08:35,030 --> 02:08:34,079 apparatus so we wouldn't be able to talk 3612 02:08:36,709 --> 02:08:35,040 to each other 3613 02:08:38,069 --> 02:08:36,719 or comply with this imperative to 3614 02:08:41,270 --> 02:08:38,079 resolve uncertainty 3615 02:08:42,069 --> 02:08:41,280 to explore the world that i have to 3616 02:08:44,550 --> 02:08:42,079 model 3617 02:08:45,910 --> 02:08:44,560 um without language and without a deep 3618 02:08:47,669 --> 02:08:45,920 genetic model with a deep 3619 02:08:49,109 --> 02:08:47,679 hierarchical structure there can be no 3620 02:08:51,669 --> 02:08:49,119 language there's a natural 3621 02:08:52,310 --> 02:08:51,679 if you like not pressure but there's 3622 02:08:54,550 --> 02:08:52,320 certainly 3623 02:08:56,069 --> 02:08:54,560 uh an easy way to understand why we have 3624 02:08:57,830 --> 02:08:56,079 deep generative models 3625 02:08:59,270 --> 02:08:57,840 in our brain in fact we do i mean you 3626 02:09:02,390 --> 02:08:59,280 know nearly 3627 02:09:05,030 --> 02:09:02,400 all the interesting connectivity all the 3628 02:09:07,990 --> 02:09:05,040 interesting architectural aspects 3629 02:09:09,990 --> 02:09:08,000 of brain connectivity speak to a 3630 02:09:12,229 --> 02:09:10,000 hierarchical organization at some level 3631 02:09:14,790 --> 02:09:12,239 it's cortical subcortical the very word 3632 02:09:16,709 --> 02:09:14,800 sub means below below is only an 3633 02:09:18,390 --> 02:09:16,719 attribute of hierarchy it can't be 3634 02:09:19,750 --> 02:09:18,400 any other thing you know the visual 3635 02:09:23,350 --> 02:09:19,760 hierarchy being the sort of 3636 02:09:26,550 --> 02:09:23,360 the the poster child for um very well 3637 02:09:28,870 --> 02:09:26,560 um defined subsumption hierarchies 3638 02:09:30,149 --> 02:09:28,880 but you know beyond that wherever you 3639 02:09:31,990 --> 02:09:30,159 look in the brain there is some 3640 02:09:34,229 --> 02:09:32,000 hierarchical organization where 3641 02:09:35,510 --> 02:09:34,239 where slow stuff is in training fast 3642 02:09:38,390 --> 02:09:35,520 stuff at the lower below 3643 02:09:39,430 --> 02:09:38,400 and then all the way down to the um to 3644 02:09:41,910 --> 02:09:39,440 the sensory 3645 02:09:42,470 --> 02:09:41,920 inputs on the uh the actuators or the 3646 02:09:46,950 --> 02:09:42,480 active 3647 02:09:52,069 --> 02:09:49,109 okay so hierarchy is another way of 3648 02:09:54,390 --> 02:09:52,079 saying difference that can be compared 3649 02:09:55,830 --> 02:09:54,400 say that again so a hierarchy a 3650 02:09:57,270 --> 02:09:55,840 difference that can be compared 3651 02:09:59,350 --> 02:09:57,280 so these two are different but there's 3652 02:10:01,510 --> 02:09:59,360 no hierarchy between them if it's like 3653 02:10:03,430 --> 02:10:01,520 someone may say apples and oranges but 3654 02:10:04,790 --> 02:10:03,440 if it's between apples and two apples 3655 02:10:06,390 --> 02:10:04,800 then there's a hierarchy there because 3656 02:10:08,390 --> 02:10:06,400 there's a quantity that we can reduce 3657 02:10:11,189 --> 02:10:08,400 down and put a comparison between them 3658 02:10:13,189 --> 02:10:11,199 oh i see yeah no absolutely so the the 3659 02:10:14,709 --> 02:10:13,199 height the way i'm using hierarchy here 3660 02:10:18,149 --> 02:10:14,719 is certainly 3661 02:10:20,390 --> 02:10:18,159 um sort of so when people talk about say 3662 02:10:21,910 --> 02:10:20,400 deep learning um what they're talking 3663 02:10:25,350 --> 02:10:21,920 about is um 3664 02:10:27,589 --> 02:10:25,360 inference and classification under a um 3665 02:10:29,189 --> 02:10:27,599 under a hierarchical genitive model that 3666 02:10:32,310 --> 02:10:29,199 has a number of hidden layers 3667 02:10:35,430 --> 02:10:32,320 so the depth of the the learning machine 3668 02:10:37,589 --> 02:10:35,440 refers to how many layers you build 3669 02:10:38,870 --> 02:10:37,599 and so what you do is you put the data 3670 02:10:41,109 --> 02:10:38,880 in um 3671 02:10:43,030 --> 02:10:41,119 and then you try and explain it with one 3672 02:10:44,550 --> 02:10:43,040 there and then those explanations and 3673 02:10:45,750 --> 02:10:44,560 that you then try and explain it with a 3674 02:10:47,350 --> 02:10:45,760 layer 3675 02:10:49,510 --> 02:10:47,360 on top of that and then you keep on 3676 02:10:50,310 --> 02:10:49,520 going until ultimately you get to some 3677 02:10:53,030 --> 02:10:50,320 very very 3678 02:10:55,030 --> 02:10:53,040 coarse grain very abstract explanations 3679 02:10:56,950 --> 02:10:55,040 that are predicting if you like 3680 02:10:59,030 --> 02:10:56,960 the there below and then they're 3681 02:11:01,189 --> 02:10:59,040 unpacked to predict hierarchically 3682 02:11:03,830 --> 02:11:01,199 right down to the level of say pixel 3683 02:11:06,790 --> 02:11:03,840 elements in a tv screen or sort of um 3684 02:11:07,189 --> 02:11:06,800 you know some image that's been grabbed 3685 02:11:09,350 --> 02:11:07,199 so 3686 02:11:10,790 --> 02:11:09,360 the deep the hierarchical depth is 3687 02:11:14,310 --> 02:11:10,800 basically how many 3688 02:11:17,270 --> 02:11:14,320 subordinate layers do you have i see one 3689 02:11:18,870 --> 02:11:17,280 higher level providing getting 3690 02:11:22,229 --> 02:11:18,880 information from the lower level 3691 02:11:25,030 --> 02:11:22,239 but also providing um constraints 3692 02:11:26,229 --> 02:11:25,040 i'm saying well if this hierarch if this 3693 02:11:27,830 --> 02:11:26,239 context is in play 3694 02:11:29,990 --> 02:11:27,840 then i expect this kind of thing to 3695 02:11:31,350 --> 02:11:30,000 happen over here in that modality and 3696 02:11:33,470 --> 02:11:31,360 that kind of thing to happen over there 3697 02:11:34,950 --> 02:11:33,480 in that modality so it brings a 3698 02:11:37,990 --> 02:11:34,960 simplification 3699 02:11:39,030 --> 02:11:38,000 and a a better way of modeling provided 3700 02:11:40,069 --> 02:11:39,040 that you've got this hierarchical 3701 02:11:41,589 --> 02:11:40,079 structure 3702 02:11:43,189 --> 02:11:41,599 what you were talking about i think is 3703 02:11:45,510 --> 02:11:43,199 more the modularity of the sort of 3704 02:11:46,229 --> 02:11:45,520 is this a an apple or is this an orange 3705 02:11:48,229 --> 02:11:46,239 i think that 3706 02:11:49,830 --> 02:11:48,239 within the hierarchy within the depth 3707 02:11:51,189 --> 02:11:49,840 from sort of um 3708 02:11:52,790 --> 02:11:51,199 you know the lower level which are 3709 02:11:54,390 --> 02:11:52,800 usually at the level of the sensors and 3710 02:11:57,189 --> 02:11:54,400 the actuators 3711 02:11:58,550 --> 02:11:57,199 and the higher level um is usually um 3712 02:11:59,990 --> 02:11:58,560 the top of a pyramid 3713 02:12:01,589 --> 02:12:00,000 of course you know there isn't a pyramid 3714 02:12:02,950 --> 02:12:01,599 in the brain it's you can imagine it 3715 02:12:05,350 --> 02:12:02,960 more like a circle 3716 02:12:06,390 --> 02:12:05,360 and the center being being the deeper 3717 02:12:09,430 --> 02:12:06,400 parts of it 3718 02:12:11,990 --> 02:12:09,440 um so but there's a there's another 3719 02:12:12,550 --> 02:12:12,000 architectural structure which is um not 3720 02:12:14,149 --> 02:12:12,560 in the 3721 02:12:16,550 --> 02:12:14,159 the depth of the hierarchy from the 3722 02:12:19,109 --> 02:12:16,560 bottom of the circle say to the center 3723 02:12:20,550 --> 02:12:19,119 but actually the the different streams 3724 02:12:21,430 --> 02:12:20,560 you talk about the apples and oranges 3725 02:12:23,669 --> 02:12:21,440 and it's that 3726 02:12:24,709 --> 02:12:23,679 factorization that what awareness that i 3727 02:12:26,629 --> 02:12:24,719 was you know 3728 02:12:27,910 --> 02:12:26,639 hinting at before which is a lovely 3729 02:12:31,270 --> 02:12:27,920 example of 3730 02:12:33,430 --> 02:12:31,280 um you know things i know about oranges 3731 02:12:34,709 --> 02:12:33,440 are not relevant for things i know about 3732 02:12:36,709 --> 02:12:34,719 apples i mean 3733 02:12:38,069 --> 02:12:36,719 that's probably a silly example because 3734 02:12:38,950 --> 02:12:38,079 there are there are things that are 3735 02:12:41,189 --> 02:12:38,960 concerned but 3736 02:12:42,629 --> 02:12:41,199 things i know about fruit i'm not going 3737 02:12:43,990 --> 02:12:42,639 to be terribly useful for things i know 3738 02:12:46,709 --> 02:12:44,000 about tools 3739 02:12:47,669 --> 02:12:46,719 so i can actually have my genitive model 3740 02:12:51,430 --> 02:12:47,679 generating 3741 02:12:53,589 --> 02:12:51,440 a cascade of abstract 3742 02:12:54,790 --> 02:12:53,599 representations becoming more and more 3743 02:12:57,589 --> 02:12:54,800 detailed committed 3744 02:12:58,069 --> 02:12:57,599 right down to a picture of or a sound of 3745 02:13:00,870 --> 02:12:58,079 or 3746 02:13:01,430 --> 02:13:00,880 me moving this particular artifact but 3747 02:13:04,470 --> 02:13:01,440 of course 3748 02:13:05,430 --> 02:13:04,480 this artifact can be either a tool or a 3749 02:13:08,470 --> 02:13:05,440 face 3750 02:13:09,910 --> 02:13:08,480 you know or an apple a fruit 3751 02:13:11,910 --> 02:13:09,920 and because you've got you know these 3752 02:13:13,270 --> 02:13:11,920 conditional dependencies tools don't 3753 02:13:17,109 --> 02:13:13,280 behave like fruit 3754 02:13:20,550 --> 02:13:17,119 and i don't in particular um i don't 3755 02:13:22,709 --> 02:13:20,560 um actively engage with tools 3756 02:13:24,790 --> 02:13:22,719 in the same way that i engage with fruit 3757 02:13:26,470 --> 02:13:24,800 i eat fruit but i use tools 3758 02:13:28,149 --> 02:13:26,480 so it's likely that you get this the 3759 02:13:31,750 --> 02:13:28,159 separation through 3760 02:13:33,990 --> 02:13:31,760 this um this factorization or modular 3761 02:13:36,149 --> 02:13:34,000 parallel architecture 3762 02:13:38,550 --> 02:13:36,159 in the setting of a hierarchical 3763 02:13:39,990 --> 02:13:38,560 composition 3764 02:13:41,589 --> 02:13:40,000 so these are really important sort of 3765 02:13:42,709 --> 02:13:41,599 sort of architectural principles if you 3766 02:13:44,790 --> 02:13:42,719 have to actually build 3767 02:13:45,750 --> 02:13:44,800 or understand the brain but also if you 3768 02:13:48,069 --> 02:13:45,760 wanted to build 3769 02:13:49,270 --> 02:13:48,079 a you know a conscious artifact or an 3770 02:13:51,430 --> 02:13:49,280 intelligent artifact 3771 02:13:53,510 --> 02:13:51,440 you'd have to equip it with a with this 3772 02:13:54,229 --> 02:13:53,520 you know with both a deep genitive model 3773 02:13:56,629 --> 02:13:54,239 but also 3774 02:13:57,589 --> 02:13:56,639 had this sort of um these parallel 3775 02:13:59,109 --> 02:13:57,599 streams to them 3776 02:14:00,870 --> 02:13:59,119 which brings us back to the right brain 3777 02:14:02,390 --> 02:14:00,880 versus left brain i still don't 3778 02:14:04,390 --> 02:14:02,400 i don't have a neat answer for you i'm 3779 02:14:06,390 --> 02:14:04,400 afraid but you're right i mean 3780 02:14:07,750 --> 02:14:06,400 you know language lateralization is a 3781 02:14:11,589 --> 02:14:07,760 classic um 3782 02:14:13,990 --> 02:14:11,599 a classic uh and conserved 3783 02:14:15,589 --> 02:14:14,000 aspect of our brains but i can't think 3784 02:14:16,069 --> 02:14:15,599 of a first principle account as to why 3785 02:14:18,550 --> 02:14:16,079 that 3786 02:14:19,990 --> 02:14:18,560 might be the case you mentioned the word 3787 02:14:21,189 --> 02:14:20,000 narrative that we have to have a shared 3788 02:14:22,390 --> 02:14:21,199 narrative now were you saying that we 3789 02:14:24,470 --> 02:14:22,400 have to have a shared narrative 3790 02:14:26,229 --> 02:14:24,480 in order to have peace between us or in 3791 02:14:27,350 --> 02:14:26,239 order to interact or in order to 3792 02:14:29,109 --> 02:14:27,360 understand one another 3793 02:14:31,990 --> 02:14:29,119 and then also does that narrative have 3794 02:14:32,390 --> 02:14:32,000 to be encapsulated in language or can it 3795 02:14:36,470 --> 02:14:32,400 be 3796 02:14:38,069 --> 02:14:36,480 can get along 3797 02:14:40,550 --> 02:14:38,079 and they don't have language at least 3798 02:14:41,910 --> 02:14:40,560 not the way we do and presumably we 3799 02:14:44,950 --> 02:14:41,920 didn't have language 3800 02:14:47,830 --> 02:14:44,960 prior to a million years ago 3801 02:14:49,830 --> 02:14:47,840 yeah we got along yeah well i meant it 3802 02:14:52,870 --> 02:14:49,840 in exactly the same the sense that you 3803 02:14:56,149 --> 02:14:52,880 um you intimated there so 3804 02:14:59,350 --> 02:14:56,159 um yeah it it is just there if we 3805 02:14:59,910 --> 02:14:59,360 have a shared narrative um that i'm i'm 3806 02:15:02,470 --> 02:14:59,920 now 3807 02:15:03,350 --> 02:15:02,480 using narrative to describe a generative 3808 02:15:07,189 --> 02:15:03,360 model 3809 02:15:08,069 --> 02:15:07,199 that entails um sequences of things that 3810 02:15:11,270 --> 02:15:08,079 happen over time 3811 02:15:13,350 --> 02:15:11,280 so it's a model of sequences um 3812 02:15:15,270 --> 02:15:13,360 that usually has a deep deep temporal 3813 02:15:19,109 --> 02:15:15,280 structure to it 3814 02:15:22,149 --> 02:15:19,119 so if i want to understand you 3815 02:15:23,990 --> 02:15:22,159 and i want to communicate with you um in 3816 02:15:25,990 --> 02:15:24,000 order to understand you and to 3817 02:15:27,189 --> 02:15:26,000 and to ask you questions to understand 3818 02:15:30,069 --> 02:15:27,199 more about your 3819 02:15:31,589 --> 02:15:30,079 your intentional stance your knowledge 3820 02:15:34,950 --> 02:15:31,599 then i'm going to need 3821 02:15:37,589 --> 02:15:34,960 to infer what you're thinking 3822 02:15:38,629 --> 02:15:37,599 and i can do that if i know what i'm 3823 02:15:40,709 --> 02:15:38,639 thinking 3824 02:15:42,709 --> 02:15:40,719 but only and then under the assumption 3825 02:15:43,510 --> 02:15:42,719 that you're using the same kind of model 3826 02:15:45,750 --> 02:15:43,520 as me 3827 02:15:46,950 --> 02:15:45,760 so we're both using the same code or 3828 02:15:50,229 --> 02:15:46,960 singing from the same hymn 3829 02:15:51,270 --> 02:15:50,239 sheet so you know when you start to 3830 02:15:54,310 --> 02:15:51,280 model this you don't 3831 02:15:56,870 --> 02:15:54,320 you well we have models of of of um 3832 02:15:57,589 --> 02:15:56,880 linguistic exchange which are cast in 3833 02:15:59,910 --> 02:15:57,599 terms of 3834 02:16:02,149 --> 02:15:59,920 simple games of 20 questions so you know 3835 02:16:04,870 --> 02:16:02,159 one agent has to ask another agent 3836 02:16:05,669 --> 02:16:04,880 um through linguistic exchange but it 3837 02:16:08,149 --> 02:16:05,679 does depend 3838 02:16:09,030 --> 02:16:08,159 depend upon them both committing to the 3839 02:16:11,350 --> 02:16:09,040 same 3840 02:16:12,550 --> 02:16:11,360 generative model of this linguistic 3841 02:16:15,669 --> 02:16:12,560 exchange in the meaning 3842 02:16:19,109 --> 02:16:15,679 a simpler a simpler set of simulations 3843 02:16:20,790 --> 02:16:19,119 um arises when you think about sort of 3844 02:16:22,950 --> 02:16:20,800 just birds singing to each other so they 3845 02:16:25,510 --> 02:16:22,960 can recognize con specifics 3846 02:16:27,109 --> 02:16:25,520 so you know what that's quite that's 3847 02:16:30,310 --> 02:16:27,119 much easier to simulate 3848 02:16:32,790 --> 02:16:30,320 when you just have two dynamical systems 3849 02:16:34,230 --> 02:16:32,800 talking to each other and they're both 3850 02:16:35,990 --> 02:16:34,240 now becoming trained to show 3851 02:16:37,030 --> 02:16:36,000 synchronization of chaos than we were 3852 02:16:39,509 --> 02:16:37,040 talking about before 3853 02:16:41,750 --> 02:16:39,519 in a different context but here in the 3854 02:16:43,830 --> 02:16:41,760 service of mutual predictability 3855 02:16:46,150 --> 02:16:43,840 so another way of thinking about what's 3856 02:16:48,709 --> 02:16:46,160 the best way to minimize surprise 3857 02:16:50,629 --> 02:16:48,719 surprise or self-information when 3858 02:16:52,549 --> 02:16:50,639 exchange with another 3859 02:16:54,549 --> 02:16:52,559 is to make sure that i only exchange 3860 02:16:56,389 --> 02:16:54,559 with other people exactly like me 3861 02:16:57,750 --> 02:16:56,399 because i can predict exactly what 3862 02:16:59,030 --> 02:16:57,760 you're going to do next because i know 3863 02:17:00,950 --> 02:16:59,040 exactly what i'm going to do next 3864 02:17:02,309 --> 02:17:00,960 i'm doing it so you know we could be 3865 02:17:04,309 --> 02:17:02,319 singing or talking together 3866 02:17:05,910 --> 02:17:04,319 clearly we take turns but there are 3867 02:17:08,389 --> 02:17:05,920 situations where we could be actually 3868 02:17:09,110 --> 02:17:08,399 singing in the choir together but i can 3869 02:17:11,910 --> 02:17:09,120 only 3870 02:17:13,910 --> 02:17:11,920 sing with people that have a 3871 02:17:14,549 --> 02:17:13,920 sufficiently similar generative model to 3872 02:17:17,669 --> 02:17:14,559 me 3873 02:17:21,030 --> 02:17:17,679 that makes it um that licenses 3874 02:17:23,270 --> 02:17:21,040 the use of my model of how 3875 02:17:24,150 --> 02:17:23,280 this kind of creature interacts with the 3876 02:17:27,190 --> 02:17:24,160 world 3877 02:17:29,270 --> 02:17:27,200 uh license licenses its use 3878 02:17:30,469 --> 02:17:29,280 as a model of how you are interacting 3879 02:17:32,709 --> 02:17:30,479 with the world and 3880 02:17:34,150 --> 02:17:32,719 interacting with interacting with me so 3881 02:17:34,549 --> 02:17:34,160 that's what i meant by shared narrative 3882 02:17:38,469 --> 02:17:34,559 just 3883 02:17:41,509 --> 02:17:38,479 model 3884 02:17:44,709 --> 02:17:41,519 between um creatures that typically 3885 02:17:46,709 --> 02:17:44,719 um act together in terms of things like 3886 02:17:49,030 --> 02:17:46,719 joint attention or 3887 02:17:50,230 --> 02:17:49,040 familial bonds or sort of con specifics 3888 02:17:54,389 --> 02:17:50,240 in an evolutionary 3889 02:17:58,469 --> 02:17:57,190 that generalizes um in terms of your 3890 02:18:01,990 --> 02:17:58,479 cultural takes on 3891 02:18:03,910 --> 02:18:02,000 um uh niche construction you know 3892 02:18:05,750 --> 02:18:03,920 the existence of things like signs and 3893 02:18:06,549 --> 02:18:05,760 traffic lights and elephant and desire 3894 02:18:09,589 --> 02:18:06,559 paths 3895 02:18:10,150 --> 02:18:09,599 these are all manifestations of um you 3896 02:18:12,309 --> 02:18:10,160 know 3897 02:18:13,910 --> 02:18:12,319 living sharing a world with other 3898 02:18:16,469 --> 02:18:13,920 creatures like myself 3899 02:18:17,030 --> 02:18:16,479 that after a while there they become 3900 02:18:20,150 --> 02:18:17,040 very 3901 02:18:22,150 --> 02:18:20,160 communicating 3902 02:18:25,190 --> 02:18:22,160 possibly as you say don't involve spoken 3903 02:18:26,950 --> 02:18:25,200 language and non-verbal communication 3904 02:18:28,629 --> 02:18:26,960 is clearly an incredibly important part 3905 02:18:30,709 --> 02:18:28,639 of that but even beyond that 3906 02:18:32,150 --> 02:18:30,719 just the fact that we have a shared 3907 02:18:34,629 --> 02:18:32,160 commitment to 3908 02:18:35,509 --> 02:18:34,639 stopping when a traffic signal or light 3909 02:18:37,589 --> 02:18:35,519 goes red 3910 02:18:39,750 --> 02:18:37,599 you know that's a shared narrative we 3911 02:18:41,429 --> 02:18:39,760 have that enables us to drive around and 3912 02:18:43,030 --> 02:18:41,439 occupy the same streets 3913 02:18:45,349 --> 02:18:43,040 when some of us are driving and some of 3914 02:18:46,629 --> 02:18:45,359 us are walking or both of us are driving 3915 02:18:49,190 --> 02:18:46,639 so that's what i meant by shared 3916 02:18:52,070 --> 02:18:49,200 narrative is sort of you know a common 3917 02:18:53,030 --> 02:18:52,080 a common generative model of how to live 3918 02:18:56,070 --> 02:18:53,040 in this world 3919 02:18:58,230 --> 02:18:56,080 with things like me interesting 3920 02:18:59,830 --> 02:18:58,240 interesting okay now it can't simply be 3921 02:19:01,270 --> 02:18:59,840 just shared there has to be some other 3922 02:19:02,629 --> 02:19:01,280 criteria only because 3923 02:19:04,309 --> 02:19:02,639 me and you can still share the same 3924 02:19:05,669 --> 02:19:04,319 model that says that you're an enemy and 3925 02:19:07,110 --> 02:19:05,679 i'm supposed to kill you and i'm 3926 02:19:09,270 --> 02:19:07,120 and you're supposed to kill me so then 3927 02:19:11,349 --> 02:19:09,280 it's not just shared that allows us to 3928 02:19:12,870 --> 02:19:11,359 be peaceful cohabitants and i was 3929 02:19:15,509 --> 02:19:12,880 wondering 3930 02:19:17,190 --> 02:19:15,519 then do you think religion is an attempt 3931 02:19:18,950 --> 02:19:17,200 to make a hypothesis or 3932 02:19:20,389 --> 02:19:18,960 or to generate possibilities as to 3933 02:19:22,709 --> 02:19:20,399 generative models that 3934 02:19:24,870 --> 02:19:22,719 a large class of people could share and 3935 02:19:27,030 --> 02:19:24,880 minimize the suffering of 3936 02:19:27,910 --> 02:19:27,040 both the society and the individuals at 3937 02:19:29,750 --> 02:19:27,920 the same time 3938 02:19:31,830 --> 02:19:29,760 yeah i haven't thought deeply about this 3939 02:19:35,190 --> 02:19:31,840 but that's a very plausible 3940 02:19:38,790 --> 02:19:35,200 very plausible explanation for why um 3941 02:19:40,150 --> 02:19:38,800 religious narratives have have emerged 3942 02:19:43,270 --> 02:19:40,160 and that's so successful 3943 02:19:45,830 --> 02:19:43,280 in maintaining themselves um so 3944 02:19:47,429 --> 02:19:45,840 you know just in in terms of a simple 3945 02:19:51,349 --> 02:19:47,439 analysis 3946 02:19:53,190 --> 02:19:51,359 of the minimizing complexity arguments 3947 02:19:55,349 --> 02:19:53,200 that we were rehearsing before 3948 02:19:57,990 --> 02:19:55,359 your if you want to find a really simple 3949 02:19:59,510 --> 02:19:58,000 explanation that accommodates a lot of 3950 02:20:01,030 --> 02:19:59,520 difficult to explain stuff very 3951 02:20:04,150 --> 02:20:01,040 accurately then 3952 02:20:06,230 --> 02:20:04,160 a a deity that can cause all this stuff 3953 02:20:09,030 --> 02:20:06,240 is a really simple explanation 3954 02:20:11,349 --> 02:20:09,040 and you know if it accurately explains 3955 02:20:13,349 --> 02:20:11,359 your sensorium and your world 3956 02:20:15,590 --> 02:20:13,359 then it's it's a beautiful example of a 3957 02:20:18,070 --> 02:20:15,600 very parsimonious hypothesis 3958 02:20:19,510 --> 02:20:18,080 now it may not be sufficiently accurate 3959 02:20:22,550 --> 02:20:19,520 for 3960 02:20:24,469 --> 02:20:22,560 a scientist who does not accept 3961 02:20:25,990 --> 02:20:24,479 you know a religious explanation for 3962 02:20:30,389 --> 02:20:26,000 this or that 3963 02:20:32,389 --> 02:20:30,399 but if you are not um if you are not um 3964 02:20:33,429 --> 02:20:32,399 sampling that kind of sensory 3965 02:20:35,590 --> 02:20:33,439 information or 3966 02:20:36,469 --> 02:20:35,600 that kind of scientific data then that 3967 02:20:38,150 --> 02:20:36,479 doesn't matter 3968 02:20:39,910 --> 02:20:38,160 um because you know you only need to 3969 02:20:44,630 --> 02:20:39,920 explain what you need to explain 3970 02:20:48,469 --> 02:20:44,640 so just as um just as a broad um 3971 02:20:51,190 --> 02:20:48,479 comment upon religious beliefs um 3972 02:20:52,389 --> 02:20:51,200 and i think you can generalize that to 3973 02:20:54,870 --> 02:20:52,399 societal norms 3974 02:20:55,990 --> 02:20:54,880 you know just ways of behaving the right 3975 02:20:58,389 --> 02:20:56,000 way to behave 3976 02:20:59,830 --> 02:20:58,399 um you know these are just simple 3977 02:21:01,990 --> 02:20:59,840 hypotheses 3978 02:21:03,349 --> 02:21:02,000 that explain a lot of my behavior and a 3979 02:21:04,550 --> 02:21:03,359 lot of your behavior in a really 3980 02:21:06,309 --> 02:21:04,560 parsimonious way 3981 02:21:08,230 --> 02:21:06,319 and therefore they have big evidence 3982 02:21:12,070 --> 02:21:08,240 although free energy because 3983 02:21:13,270 --> 02:21:12,080 they provide simple explanations um so 3984 02:21:14,550 --> 02:21:13,280 but you're bringing something else to 3985 02:21:15,670 --> 02:21:14,560 the table which is which is 3986 02:21:17,429 --> 02:21:15,680 an interesting one which i haven't 3987 02:21:18,070 --> 02:21:17,439 thought about which of course these 3988 02:21:21,190 --> 02:21:18,080 kinds of 3989 02:21:24,309 --> 02:21:21,200 um hypotheses are easy to share as well 3990 02:21:25,830 --> 02:21:24,319 in virtue of their simplicity um and 3991 02:21:28,710 --> 02:21:25,840 there's always going to be benefit in 3992 02:21:31,910 --> 02:21:28,720 having um a shared or conserved 3993 02:21:32,790 --> 02:21:31,920 or a common genitive model um provided 3994 02:21:34,309 --> 02:21:32,800 as you say that 3995 02:21:36,150 --> 02:21:34,319 we're all cooperating we're all acting 3996 02:21:38,469 --> 02:21:36,160 as con specifics um 3997 02:21:39,670 --> 02:21:38,479 it's interesting to um and you know so 3998 02:21:43,270 --> 02:21:39,680 in answer to your question 3999 02:21:46,309 --> 02:21:43,280 i am sure that if you simulated multiple 4000 02:21:47,750 --> 02:21:46,319 agents all free energy minimizing all 4001 02:21:49,910 --> 02:21:47,760 trying to predict each other 4002 02:21:50,950 --> 02:21:49,920 in the most efficient way possible and 4003 02:21:53,990 --> 02:21:50,960 then one of them had 4004 02:21:57,030 --> 02:21:54,000 this simple hypothesis of a religious 4005 02:21:59,190 --> 02:21:57,040 or a ideological or theological sword 4006 02:22:01,110 --> 02:21:59,200 that made sense of lots of things to 4007 02:22:03,030 --> 02:22:01,120 which everybody could subscribe 4008 02:22:04,309 --> 02:22:03,040 you'd suddenly see the consolidation and 4009 02:22:06,309 --> 02:22:04,319 the emergence of that 4010 02:22:07,830 --> 02:22:06,319 of that aspect of the generative model 4011 02:22:08,550 --> 02:22:07,840 absolutely and that would render 4012 02:22:12,469 --> 02:22:08,560 everybody 4013 02:22:15,830 --> 02:22:12,479 be reducing their surprise 4014 02:22:17,670 --> 02:22:15,840 um you know and that would 4015 02:22:19,990 --> 02:22:17,680 mathematically be expressed as a 4016 02:22:20,710 --> 02:22:20,000 you know a collective decrease in free 4017 02:22:22,710 --> 02:22:20,720 energy or an 4018 02:22:23,990 --> 02:22:22,720 increase in the adaptive fitness in the 4019 02:22:25,510 --> 02:22:24,000 sense of you know 4020 02:22:27,190 --> 02:22:25,520 increasing the marginal likelihood of 4021 02:22:28,469 --> 02:22:27,200 finding that phenotype around 4022 02:22:30,790 --> 02:22:28,479 if you're simulating multiple 4023 02:22:32,630 --> 02:22:30,800 generations um 4024 02:22:34,389 --> 02:22:32,640 but the well in that case that would be 4025 02:22:35,429 --> 02:22:34,399 trivially correct in saying that there's 4026 02:22:38,710 --> 02:22:35,439 a deity because 4027 02:22:40,150 --> 02:22:38,720 you're the simulator yes 4028 02:22:42,710 --> 02:22:40,160 well that's an interesting hypothesis 4029 02:22:45,270 --> 02:22:42,720 which um interestingly if you 4030 02:22:46,710 --> 02:22:45,280 um if you do philosophy of course then 4031 02:22:48,630 --> 02:22:46,720 you've got the brain in the vat 4032 02:22:49,990 --> 02:22:48,640 thought experiment which indeed actually 4033 02:22:52,950 --> 02:22:50,000 has that exactly 4034 02:22:54,309 --> 02:22:52,960 as an alternative hypothesis uh to 4035 02:22:57,429 --> 02:22:54,319 confound the uh 4036 02:22:59,110 --> 02:22:57,439 um you know the philosophy of of of 4037 02:23:01,270 --> 02:22:59,120 realism versus skepticism 4038 02:23:02,150 --> 02:23:01,280 um but coming to you to your interesting 4039 02:23:03,830 --> 02:23:02,160 point that you know 4040 02:23:05,830 --> 02:23:03,840 what happens if my genitive model is 4041 02:23:09,349 --> 02:23:05,840 that you know you're my enemy 4042 02:23:10,309 --> 02:23:09,359 you're going to you're going to cause me 4043 02:23:12,469 --> 02:23:10,319 surprises 4044 02:23:14,070 --> 02:23:12,479 i think that's that's an interesting one 4045 02:23:15,670 --> 02:23:14,080 you know the level at which we 4046 02:23:17,110 --> 02:23:15,680 simulate these things really only 4047 02:23:19,750 --> 02:23:17,120 addresses um 4048 02:23:21,190 --> 02:23:19,760 cooperation and systems that have 4049 02:23:22,150 --> 02:23:21,200 different components and trying to find 4050 02:23:25,670 --> 02:23:22,160 their place 4051 02:23:27,910 --> 02:23:25,680 with a shared narrative um 4052 02:23:29,910 --> 02:23:27,920 so you know what one would predict is 4053 02:23:32,950 --> 02:23:29,920 that if there were 4054 02:23:35,110 --> 02:23:32,960 um the the there were other kinds of 4055 02:23:37,830 --> 02:23:35,120 agents that were not like you 4056 02:23:38,710 --> 02:23:37,840 um then you would certainly be have to 4057 02:23:39,910 --> 02:23:38,720 represent them 4058 02:23:40,870 --> 02:23:39,920 in virtue of the fact that they're not 4059 02:23:42,070 --> 02:23:40,880 lucky you wouldn't be able to 4060 02:23:44,230 --> 02:23:42,080 communicate with them 4061 02:23:45,830 --> 02:23:44,240 so you know my prediction would be that 4062 02:23:46,870 --> 02:23:45,840 you know whether it's a theological or a 4063 02:23:49,910 --> 02:23:46,880 political 4064 02:23:51,830 --> 02:23:49,920 or other kind of um commitment 4065 02:23:53,750 --> 02:23:51,840 um if there's an in-group and an out 4066 02:23:55,750 --> 02:23:53,760 group for any one given individual 4067 02:23:57,110 --> 02:23:55,760 it is highly unlikely that there will be 4068 02:23:59,190 --> 02:23:57,120 a shared language 4069 02:24:00,950 --> 02:23:59,200 or indeed a big transaction of 4070 02:24:02,550 --> 02:24:00,960 communication between these two groups 4071 02:24:03,990 --> 02:24:02,560 so there will be a mark off blanket if 4072 02:24:04,950 --> 02:24:04,000 you like between the between the 4073 02:24:07,429 --> 02:24:04,960 in-group and the aggro 4074 02:24:08,950 --> 02:24:07,439 the blues and the reds the uh um you 4075 02:24:11,830 --> 02:24:08,960 know wherever you go 4076 02:24:13,270 --> 02:24:11,840 an interesting observation which is not 4077 02:24:14,630 --> 02:24:13,280 mine but i've heard a number of people 4078 02:24:18,150 --> 02:24:14,640 make is that the 4079 02:24:21,429 --> 02:24:18,160 the only um stable 4080 02:24:24,230 --> 02:24:21,439 um non-equilibrium for that in-group out 4081 02:24:26,389 --> 02:24:24,240 group is a 50-50 split 4082 02:24:27,349 --> 02:24:26,399 so the you know in the language of 4083 02:24:29,349 --> 02:24:27,359 theoretical 4084 02:24:30,630 --> 02:24:29,359 biology the evolutionary stable 4085 02:24:34,710 --> 02:24:30,640 strategies for 4086 02:24:37,670 --> 02:24:34,720 opponents um is a 50-50 split 4087 02:24:39,190 --> 02:24:37,680 which is borne out you know time and 4088 02:24:42,389 --> 02:24:39,200 time again in terms of what do you mean 4089 02:24:44,150 --> 02:24:42,399 a 50-50 split of what population 4090 02:24:46,070 --> 02:24:44,160 of the number of people that would 4091 02:24:46,870 --> 02:24:46,080 identify with one group versus another 4092 02:24:49,030 --> 02:24:46,880 group 4093 02:24:50,070 --> 02:24:49,040 yeah so it's become voting interesting 4094 02:24:53,110 --> 02:24:50,080 yeah so 4095 02:24:56,150 --> 02:24:53,120 um brexit versus non-brexit in the in 4096 02:24:59,349 --> 02:24:56,160 the uk or trump versus biden 4097 02:25:01,429 --> 02:24:59,359 um in the most recent american elections 4098 02:25:02,550 --> 02:25:01,439 you know wherever you get something 4099 02:25:04,309 --> 02:25:02,560 where um 4100 02:25:05,910 --> 02:25:04,319 that where there is contention where you 4101 02:25:07,030 --> 02:25:05,920 could commit to one side or the other 4102 02:25:09,510 --> 02:25:07,040 side 4103 02:25:11,750 --> 02:25:09,520 the only if you like contentions or 4104 02:25:15,030 --> 02:25:11,760 dialectics which seem to survive 4105 02:25:19,349 --> 02:25:15,040 is when there's a roughly 50 50 split 4106 02:25:22,710 --> 02:25:19,359 between you um so okay so in other words 4107 02:25:25,270 --> 02:25:22,720 the fact that we stably defer somewhat 4108 02:25:27,110 --> 02:25:25,280 down the line on many important issues 4109 02:25:29,270 --> 02:25:27,120 is adaptive 4110 02:25:30,950 --> 02:25:29,280 yep for the collective as a whole it's 4111 02:25:34,070 --> 02:25:30,960 just maintaining a non-equilibrium 4112 02:25:35,910 --> 02:25:34,080 steady state yeah i mean adaptive in 4113 02:25:38,790 --> 02:25:35,920 their deflationary sense that 4114 02:25:39,510 --> 02:25:38,800 you know that is one way to to to 4115 02:25:41,910 --> 02:25:39,520 maintain 4116 02:25:43,190 --> 02:25:41,920 you know a uh an extended 4117 02:25:45,349 --> 02:25:43,200 non-equilibrium 4118 02:25:46,870 --> 02:25:45,359 um you know where now we're talking 4119 02:25:48,550 --> 02:25:46,880 about markov blankets and mark off 4120 02:25:51,110 --> 02:25:48,560 blankets and sort of applying 4121 02:25:53,429 --> 02:25:51,120 blankets to um you know to multiple 4122 02:25:55,750 --> 02:25:53,439 agents 4123 02:25:57,110 --> 02:25:55,760 there's one quote that i love that i i 4124 02:25:59,670 --> 02:25:57,120 try to live by and it's 4125 02:26:01,349 --> 02:25:59,680 only the shallowest of minds would think 4126 02:26:02,309 --> 02:26:01,359 that in great controversy one side is 4127 02:26:04,469 --> 02:26:02,319 mere folly 4128 02:26:06,550 --> 02:26:04,479 i'm sure you've heard that before i 4129 02:26:08,469 --> 02:26:06,560 haven't heard that particular one but 4130 02:26:09,590 --> 02:26:08,479 i've heard something similar which which 4131 02:26:11,270 --> 02:26:09,600 is 4132 02:26:13,190 --> 02:26:11,280 okay so do you believe in free will and 4133 02:26:16,469 --> 02:26:13,200 if so how do you define it 4134 02:26:20,070 --> 02:26:16,479 so um free will um yup um 4135 02:26:23,270 --> 02:26:20,080 i mean you ask do i believe in it 4136 02:26:27,750 --> 02:26:23,280 there's certainly space for um free will 4137 02:26:29,190 --> 02:26:27,760 um in the um the realization of a free 4138 02:26:32,790 --> 02:26:29,200 energy principle 4139 02:26:35,110 --> 02:26:32,800 in sentient artifacts at many levels um 4140 02:26:36,389 --> 02:26:35,120 you you when you actually come to write 4141 02:26:39,670 --> 02:26:36,399 down and simulate 4142 02:26:42,630 --> 02:26:39,680 or build little toy um agents 4143 02:26:44,550 --> 02:26:42,640 you very quickly realize that the most 4144 02:26:47,190 --> 02:26:44,560 interesting in fact the only 4145 02:26:48,070 --> 02:26:47,200 interesting behaviors um that you can 4146 02:26:50,469 --> 02:26:48,080 simulate 4147 02:26:51,590 --> 02:26:50,479 arise when you write down the generative 4148 02:26:54,790 --> 02:26:51,600 models 4149 02:26:55,670 --> 02:26:54,800 as containing um autonomous dynamics 4150 02:26:59,030 --> 02:26:55,680 usually of a 4151 02:27:02,230 --> 02:26:59,040 chaotic sort so the reason i 4152 02:27:02,870 --> 02:27:02,240 i use the word autonomous dynamics is 4153 02:27:04,870 --> 02:27:02,880 that 4154 02:27:07,510 --> 02:27:04,880 you know mathematically speaking there's 4155 02:27:10,230 --> 02:27:07,520 a sort of free will in the autonomy 4156 02:27:10,630 --> 02:27:10,240 there's even in a deterministic setting 4157 02:27:14,950 --> 02:27:10,640 there 4158 02:27:17,270 --> 02:27:14,960 is um um you know 4159 02:27:18,550 --> 02:27:17,280 an unpredictability given the initial 4160 02:27:23,349 --> 02:27:18,560 conditions 4161 02:27:24,870 --> 02:27:23,359 um that cannot be determined so um 4162 02:27:27,750 --> 02:27:24,880 in that sense there has to be a 4163 02:27:31,190 --> 02:27:27,760 mathematical kind of of free will 4164 02:27:33,349 --> 02:27:31,200 at play um the the um 4165 02:27:35,030 --> 02:27:33,359 the other the other sort of take i guess 4166 02:27:36,790 --> 02:27:35,040 on free will is it comes back to what we 4167 02:27:38,790 --> 02:27:36,800 were talking about before about 4168 02:27:40,790 --> 02:27:38,800 you know making our own sensations 4169 02:27:41,830 --> 02:27:40,800 creating our own sensorium so if you 4170 02:27:44,870 --> 02:27:41,840 remember that 4171 02:27:48,550 --> 02:27:44,880 um the you know 4172 02:27:51,750 --> 02:27:48,560 from the point of view of minimizing um 4173 02:27:54,550 --> 02:27:51,760 prediction error as surprise there are 4174 02:27:57,590 --> 02:27:54,560 two ways i can do that i can 4175 02:27:57,990 --> 02:27:57,600 change my mind so that my predictions 4176 02:28:00,230 --> 02:27:58,000 are more 4177 02:28:02,230 --> 02:28:00,240 like what i'm sensing and that would be 4178 02:28:03,190 --> 02:28:02,240 a minimization of particular through 4179 02:28:05,349 --> 02:28:03,200 perception 4180 02:28:06,710 --> 02:28:05,359 but there's another way of doing that 4181 02:28:08,230 --> 02:28:06,720 minimizing the prediction 4182 02:28:10,309 --> 02:28:08,240 i can actually just change what i'm 4183 02:28:11,670 --> 02:28:10,319 sampling to make the sensations more 4184 02:28:13,990 --> 02:28:11,680 like the predictions 4185 02:28:15,590 --> 02:28:14,000 so that's you know that's action in the 4186 02:28:16,550 --> 02:28:15,600 service of minimizing surprise or 4187 02:28:19,910 --> 02:28:16,560 prediction 4188 02:28:24,389 --> 02:28:19,920 but what that means is that my actions 4189 02:28:28,070 --> 02:28:24,399 are basically in enslaved 4190 02:28:31,349 --> 02:28:28,080 to where they can fulfill my predictions 4191 02:28:33,750 --> 02:28:31,359 so they are in the service of um 4192 02:28:35,349 --> 02:28:33,760 fulfilling prophecies so collectively 4193 02:28:36,150 --> 02:28:35,359 action perception is a self-fulfilling 4194 02:28:38,870 --> 02:28:36,160 prophecy 4195 02:28:39,349 --> 02:28:38,880 and in that sense i think you know um 4196 02:28:42,950 --> 02:28:39,359 you can 4197 02:28:46,230 --> 02:28:42,960 find free will you know if if we are 4198 02:28:48,710 --> 02:28:46,240 creating our own worlds and our own um 4199 02:28:49,750 --> 02:28:48,720 sensory inputs we're constructing our 4200 02:28:52,950 --> 02:28:49,760 sensorium 4201 02:28:53,349 --> 02:28:52,960 uh who else is doing it no so in that 4202 02:28:56,309 --> 02:28:53,359 very 4203 02:28:58,710 --> 02:28:56,319 simple um i won't say deflationary but 4204 02:29:01,270 --> 02:28:58,720 simple account of free will 4205 02:29:02,630 --> 02:29:01,280 then i i can't see how it can be any 4206 02:29:05,270 --> 02:29:02,640 other way really 4207 02:29:06,790 --> 02:29:05,280 i had there's something that i've been 4208 02:29:07,670 --> 02:29:06,800 wanting to study for quite some time and 4209 02:29:09,349 --> 02:29:07,680 i've been making 4210 02:29:11,110 --> 02:29:09,359 extensive notes on which is 4211 02:29:12,950 --> 02:29:11,120 self-fulfilling prophecies i find it to 4212 02:29:15,349 --> 02:29:12,960 be an extremely interesting area 4213 02:29:16,550 --> 02:29:15,359 of research the fact that you can have 4214 02:29:18,790 --> 02:29:16,560 them 4215 02:29:19,670 --> 02:29:18,800 it's like you have a model of the world 4216 02:29:20,950 --> 02:29:19,680 and 4217 02:29:22,389 --> 02:29:20,960 most of the time what you want to do is 4218 02:29:23,910 --> 02:29:22,399 make sure that your model comports with 4219 02:29:25,429 --> 02:29:23,920 reality but then it's as if there are 4220 02:29:26,790 --> 02:29:25,439 these blank spots in reality 4221 02:29:28,389 --> 02:29:26,800 where whatever you think if you think 4222 02:29:30,070 --> 02:29:28,399 there's a chair there then a chair 4223 02:29:32,070 --> 02:29:30,080 becomes 4224 02:29:33,190 --> 02:29:32,080 i know that that's an extreme example 4225 02:29:37,190 --> 02:29:33,200 but what i mean is that 4226 02:29:38,630 --> 02:29:37,200 if you imagine that your wife loves you 4227 02:29:39,990 --> 02:29:38,640 then you're going to act in a manner 4228 02:29:41,590 --> 02:29:40,000 that makes her love you more and if you 4229 02:29:42,790 --> 02:29:41,600 mistrust and so on so on so they're 4230 02:29:44,230 --> 02:29:42,800 self-fulfilling so it's as if there's 4231 02:29:46,150 --> 02:29:44,240 these lacunas in the world 4232 02:29:48,550 --> 02:29:46,160 that whatever you think is there becomes 4233 02:29:50,950 --> 02:29:48,560 there i wanted to know what your 4234 02:29:52,630 --> 02:29:50,960 free energy principle had to say about 4235 02:29:55,670 --> 02:29:52,640 self-fulfilling prophecies i imagine 4236 02:29:57,750 --> 02:29:55,680 quite a quite a lot but 4237 02:30:00,550 --> 02:29:57,760 i don't not sure if we have enough time 4238 02:30:02,469 --> 02:30:00,560 do you have any quick notes on 4239 02:30:04,230 --> 02:30:02,479 well i mean the way that you just 4240 02:30:05,429 --> 02:30:04,240 articulated that is it's spot on from 4241 02:30:06,389 --> 02:30:05,439 the point of view of the free energy 4242 02:30:09,510 --> 02:30:06,399 principles so we 4243 02:30:12,630 --> 02:30:09,520 we often use the phrase action is there 4244 02:30:13,349 --> 02:30:12,640 to realize and fulfill uh the prophecies 4245 02:30:16,309 --> 02:30:13,359 supplied 4246 02:30:17,270 --> 02:30:16,319 by the brain yeah it is literally a way 4247 02:30:23,670 --> 02:30:17,280 of 4248 02:30:25,190 --> 02:30:23,680 self uh realizing and um you know 4249 02:30:27,030 --> 02:30:25,200 self-fulfilling prophecies 4250 02:30:29,190 --> 02:30:27,040 you know i think that and the question 4251 02:30:31,830 --> 02:30:29,200 is can you keep on doing that 4252 02:30:33,110 --> 02:30:31,840 um in the face of a particular 4253 02:30:34,950 --> 02:30:33,120 environment that may allow you to do 4254 02:30:36,870 --> 02:30:34,960 that or may not and in particular 4255 02:30:38,230 --> 02:30:36,880 if you do it lots of other people who 4256 02:30:40,389 --> 02:30:38,240 are also 4257 02:30:42,710 --> 02:30:40,399 trying to pursue and self-fulfill their 4258 02:30:45,429 --> 02:30:42,720 their their purposes so 4259 02:30:46,230 --> 02:30:45,439 like what are the limitations of it yeah 4260 02:30:47,910 --> 02:30:46,240 yeah so 4261 02:30:49,349 --> 02:30:47,920 you know i i think that that's 4262 02:30:53,030 --> 02:30:49,359 absolutely right and it also 4263 02:30:54,230 --> 02:30:53,040 speaks to um you know seeing stuff which 4264 02:30:57,590 --> 02:30:54,240 is not there 4265 02:30:59,650 --> 02:30:57,600 um um starts to talk uh 4266 02:31:00,790 --> 02:30:59,660 brings us into the world 4267 02:31:03,670 --> 02:31:00,800 [Music] 4268 02:31:05,030 --> 02:31:03,680 of false inference and delusions and 4269 02:31:08,230 --> 02:31:05,040 hallucinations and 4270 02:31:10,469 --> 02:31:08,240 the kinds of um fulfilling self 4271 02:31:12,309 --> 02:31:10,479 sorry self-fulfilling prophecies of a 4272 02:31:14,469 --> 02:31:12,319 perceptual sort that people with 4273 02:31:16,790 --> 02:31:14,479 things like autism or schizophrenia 4274 02:31:19,910 --> 02:31:16,800 might be subject to so 4275 02:31:22,710 --> 02:31:19,920 you can go too far but on the other hand 4276 02:31:23,429 --> 02:31:22,720 you know there are many people who um 4277 02:31:26,389 --> 02:31:23,439 now 4278 02:31:28,630 --> 02:31:26,399 consider perception basically as sort of 4279 02:31:30,950 --> 02:31:28,640 hallucinations that are entrained by 4280 02:31:31,830 --> 02:31:30,960 by sensory input that your what we 4281 02:31:33,670 --> 02:31:31,840 actually see is 4282 02:31:35,750 --> 02:31:33,680 is it's sort of you know a product of 4283 02:31:36,950 --> 02:31:35,760 the hypotheses about what best explain 4284 02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:36,960 what's going on 4285 02:31:40,550 --> 02:31:38,880 and there are occasions when we can get 4286 02:31:42,469 --> 02:31:40,560 those hypotheses wrong 4287 02:31:45,110 --> 02:31:42,479 and that we have we're then subject to 4288 02:31:49,190 --> 02:31:45,120 illusions for example in psychophysics 4289 02:31:51,910 --> 02:31:49,200 or hallucinations um 4290 02:31:54,469 --> 02:31:51,920 and indeed delusions you know if we've 4291 02:31:55,030 --> 02:31:54,479 taken some psychedelic drugs or that we 4292 02:31:57,990 --> 02:31:55,040 have 4293 02:31:59,750 --> 02:31:58,000 conditions such as say schizophrenia so 4294 02:32:01,510 --> 02:31:59,760 then is schizophrenia a pathology of 4295 02:32:04,230 --> 02:32:01,520 free will 4296 02:32:05,270 --> 02:32:04,240 i don't think so no no i i think it's a 4297 02:32:08,870 --> 02:32:05,280 pathology of 4298 02:32:10,550 --> 02:32:08,880 of um that can be understood as a false 4299 02:32:13,590 --> 02:32:10,560 inference but i i don't 4300 02:32:17,830 --> 02:32:13,600 think that there's any um 4301 02:32:20,070 --> 02:32:17,840 uh aspect of um um 4302 02:32:21,349 --> 02:32:20,080 that would enable you to sort of isolate 4303 02:32:25,030 --> 02:32:21,359 free will as the 4304 02:32:27,030 --> 02:32:25,040 as the locus of that false inference 4305 02:32:28,230 --> 02:32:27,040 there's certainly a lot of a lot of work 4306 02:32:30,309 --> 02:32:28,240 suggesting that it 4307 02:32:31,270 --> 02:32:30,319 that the people with schizophrenia when 4308 02:32:34,469 --> 02:32:31,280 they are 4309 02:32:37,429 --> 02:32:34,479 acutely psychotic may have difficulties 4310 02:32:37,670 --> 02:32:37,439 um inferring who did that so assignment 4311 02:32:40,630 --> 02:32:37,680 of 4312 02:32:40,950 --> 02:32:40,640 agency so in the sense that you know who 4313 02:32:43,190 --> 02:32:40,960 will 4314 02:32:44,389 --> 02:32:43,200 that was it you or me there may be a 4315 02:32:47,510 --> 02:32:44,399 slight confusion 4316 02:32:47,910 --> 02:32:47,520 so i if i say something to myself i may 4317 02:32:49,270 --> 02:32:47,920 have 4318 02:32:51,030 --> 02:32:49,280 actually you said it you put that 4319 02:32:52,790 --> 02:32:51,040 thought into my head so 4320 02:32:54,469 --> 02:32:52,800 you know that's just your a false 4321 02:32:56,309 --> 02:32:54,479 attribution of agency 4322 02:32:58,309 --> 02:32:56,319 um so in that sense perhaps you could 4323 02:33:01,270 --> 02:32:58,319 say that that is a form of 4324 02:33:01,670 --> 02:33:01,280 disorganized free will um but certainly 4325 02:33:04,230 --> 02:33:01,680 the 4326 02:33:06,150 --> 02:33:04,240 people with schizophrenia that i have 4327 02:33:09,030 --> 02:33:06,160 treated or worked with in the past 4328 02:33:10,150 --> 02:33:09,040 um you know i think they would have a 4329 02:33:12,469 --> 02:33:10,160 sense of self 4330 02:33:14,630 --> 02:33:12,479 and um you know a sense of free will 4331 02:33:15,270 --> 02:33:14,640 which which would be indistinguishable 4332 02:33:18,790 --> 02:33:15,280 from uh 4333 02:33:20,469 --> 02:33:18,800 from yours and mine you know i know that 4334 02:33:22,469 --> 02:33:20,479 we have to wrap up at some point soon 4335 02:33:23,190 --> 02:33:22,479 and i wanted to bring this up i didn't 4336 02:33:25,830 --> 02:33:23,200 know how 4337 02:33:27,429 --> 02:33:25,840 but i'll just tell you quickly the a few 4338 02:33:27,990 --> 02:33:27,439 months ago maybe i'll even take this out 4339 02:33:30,230 --> 02:33:28,000 of the 4340 02:33:31,670 --> 02:33:30,240 actual clip but a few months ago january 4341 02:33:33,190 --> 02:33:31,680 february i was 4342 02:33:34,790 --> 02:33:33,200 i woke up in the middle of the night and 4343 02:33:35,510 --> 02:33:34,800 then i had a conversation with my wife 4344 02:33:37,349 --> 02:33:35,520 it was minor 4345 02:33:39,030 --> 02:33:37,359 neutral wasn't positive or negative and 4346 02:33:40,790 --> 02:33:39,040 then as i was going back to sleep she 4347 02:33:42,710 --> 02:33:40,800 either said yes or okay 4348 02:33:44,469 --> 02:33:42,720 or she could have not said it but i was 4349 02:33:46,309 --> 02:33:44,479 in this hypnagogic 4350 02:33:48,309 --> 02:33:46,319 almost sleep-like state and i've never 4351 02:33:48,950 --> 02:33:48,319 had a panic attack in my life but for 4352 02:33:50,950 --> 02:33:48,960 some reason 4353 02:33:52,630 --> 02:33:50,960 i wasn't sure if she said okay or yes or 4354 02:33:53,110 --> 02:33:52,640 whatever it was or if it was in my own 4355 02:33:55,830 --> 02:33:53,120 head 4356 02:33:56,469 --> 02:33:55,840 and then i thought am i am i psychotic 4357 02:33:58,710 --> 02:33:56,479 am i getting 4358 02:34:00,389 --> 02:33:58,720 schizophrenia i don't know why it's not 4359 02:34:02,070 --> 02:34:00,399 like that was a background anxiety of 4360 02:34:03,270 --> 02:34:02,080 mine before maybe it was maybe it's 4361 02:34:05,190 --> 02:34:03,280 latent but 4362 02:34:06,950 --> 02:34:05,200 then i started to have a panic attack 4363 02:34:09,190 --> 02:34:06,960 because i didn't want to hear 4364 02:34:11,190 --> 02:34:09,200 anything and i felt like i may be able 4365 02:34:12,070 --> 02:34:11,200 to will myself to hear something by 4366 02:34:13,830 --> 02:34:12,080 telling myself 4367 02:34:15,429 --> 02:34:13,840 don't hear then i'm like well what would 4368 02:34:17,030 --> 02:34:15,439 it sound like if i were to hear 4369 02:34:18,950 --> 02:34:17,040 then it's like no no don't go down there 4370 02:34:21,590 --> 02:34:18,960 because you may hear a voice 4371 02:34:23,750 --> 02:34:21,600 and i don't want to go i don't want to 4372 02:34:25,429 --> 02:34:23,760 be crazy i don't want to be psychotic 4373 02:34:28,230 --> 02:34:25,439 a couple days later i had another panic 4374 02:34:31,110 --> 02:34:28,240 attack almost based on the worry 4375 02:34:31,429 --> 02:34:31,120 that i'm going to be psychotic rather 4376 02:34:34,710 --> 02:34:31,439 than 4377 02:34:35,429 --> 02:34:34,720 i am at all and and i'm i've been afraid 4378 02:34:38,790 --> 02:34:35,439 to search 4379 02:34:40,790 --> 02:34:38,800 about schizophrenia because i don't want 4380 02:34:41,349 --> 02:34:40,800 to read that i have the symptoms of it 4381 02:34:43,429 --> 02:34:41,359 and 4382 02:34:45,429 --> 02:34:43,439 there's nothing else other than that i 4383 02:34:46,630 --> 02:34:45,439 may have heard my wife say okay or yes 4384 02:34:48,790 --> 02:34:46,640 in a state where i was 4385 02:34:50,309 --> 02:34:48,800 about to sleep and that she actually may 4386 02:34:52,469 --> 02:34:50,319 have in fact said it 4387 02:34:53,510 --> 02:34:52,479 or not i talked to my doctor about this 4388 02:34:55,750 --> 02:34:53,520 on the phone because it's 4389 02:34:57,190 --> 02:34:55,760 kovit and she said oh kurt well you can 4390 02:34:58,790 --> 02:34:57,200 hear many things you can hear 4391 02:35:00,230 --> 02:34:58,800 music when you're about to sleep you can 4392 02:35:01,750 --> 02:35:00,240 your foot can feel like you're about to 4393 02:35:03,670 --> 02:35:01,760 fall off and you 4394 02:35:05,190 --> 02:35:03,680 so don't worry about that and i found 4395 02:35:06,150 --> 02:35:05,200 that when i talk about it i feel much 4396 02:35:08,790 --> 02:35:06,160 more at ease 4397 02:35:10,469 --> 02:35:08,800 but ever since then for three months 4398 02:35:12,630 --> 02:35:10,479 carl for three months 4399 02:35:14,070 --> 02:35:12,640 at night time i've had such a difficult 4400 02:35:16,550 --> 02:35:14,080 time falling asleep 4401 02:35:17,750 --> 02:35:16,560 because i'm afraid of my own mind i 4402 02:35:19,270 --> 02:35:17,760 can't let myself be 4403 02:35:20,870 --> 02:35:19,280 alone with my own thoughts because i'm 4404 02:35:24,070 --> 02:35:20,880 afraid of what i might find 4405 02:35:26,710 --> 02:35:24,080 and it's created such anxiety in me that 4406 02:35:28,389 --> 02:35:26,720 i while i can't rely on any 4407 02:35:29,670 --> 02:35:28,399 benzodiazepine to sleep because that can 4408 02:35:32,070 --> 02:35:29,680 just put you in a 4409 02:35:33,590 --> 02:35:32,080 that'll create way worse problems so i 4410 02:35:34,389 --> 02:35:33,600 have to find some way of sleeping 4411 02:35:36,550 --> 02:35:34,399 without any 4412 02:35:37,750 --> 02:35:36,560 medication besides maybe melatonin 4413 02:35:39,429 --> 02:35:37,760 that's difficult 4414 02:35:41,429 --> 02:35:39,439 and i'm just not sure what to do with 4415 02:35:43,030 --> 02:35:41,439 that issue i brought this up on one of 4416 02:35:44,469 --> 02:35:43,040 my podcasts because 4417 02:35:45,990 --> 02:35:44,479 i feel like there are plenty of people 4418 02:35:47,030 --> 02:35:46,000 who may be experiencing what i'm 4419 02:35:49,590 --> 02:35:47,040 experiencing 4420 02:35:50,950 --> 02:35:49,600 but but people don't talk about it it 4421 02:35:52,230 --> 02:35:50,960 turns out when i did talk about it many 4422 02:35:53,349 --> 02:35:52,240 people in the comments section said 4423 02:35:55,510 --> 02:35:53,359 i can't believe you've been going 4424 02:35:57,590 --> 02:35:55,520 through this that's i've been going 4425 02:35:59,270 --> 02:35:57,600 through something similar 4426 02:36:01,429 --> 02:35:59,280 when i study about consciousness and so 4427 02:36:02,070 --> 02:36:01,439 on for this for these types of 4428 02:36:04,070 --> 02:36:02,080 interviews 4429 02:36:05,429 --> 02:36:04,080 i feel like i don't know what reality is 4430 02:36:06,309 --> 02:36:05,439 anymore because there's so many 4431 02:36:09,349 --> 02:36:06,319 different theories 4432 02:36:10,550 --> 02:36:09,359 and so that is destabilizing me on top 4433 02:36:12,389 --> 02:36:10,560 of what i've already been feeling and 4434 02:36:14,150 --> 02:36:12,399 i'm unsure what to do about it 4435 02:36:15,510 --> 02:36:14,160 and i just want to know what what advice 4436 02:36:17,990 --> 02:36:15,520 do you have i know that that's 4437 02:36:19,590 --> 02:36:18,000 extremely personal question but what 4438 02:36:22,790 --> 02:36:19,600 what do you recommend that i do 4439 02:36:23,349 --> 02:36:22,800 or not do well ironically you've just 4440 02:36:26,710 --> 02:36:23,359 done it 4441 02:36:29,910 --> 02:36:26,720 um um so um 4442 02:36:32,150 --> 02:36:29,920 now you i i i'm responding as in my role 4443 02:36:32,790 --> 02:36:32,160 as a psychiatrist not not obviously 4444 02:36:34,950 --> 02:36:32,800 author of 4445 02:36:36,309 --> 02:36:34,960 the free energy principle although much 4446 02:36:37,990 --> 02:36:36,319 of the free energy principle was 4447 02:36:39,270 --> 02:36:38,000 actually inspired by 4448 02:36:41,190 --> 02:36:39,280 exactly the questions that you're 4449 02:36:44,469 --> 02:36:41,200 contending with you know 4450 02:36:46,309 --> 02:36:44,479 how do i maintain a sense of self 4451 02:36:47,910 --> 02:36:46,319 which is the most important part of my 4452 02:36:50,790 --> 02:36:47,920 narratives 4453 02:36:51,510 --> 02:36:50,800 explain explain me and what can go wrong 4454 02:36:54,790 --> 02:36:51,520 when you have 4455 02:36:55,670 --> 02:36:54,800 um psychosis i think the first thing to 4456 02:36:57,650 --> 02:36:55,680 say 4457 02:36:58,870 --> 02:36:57,660 is that 4458 02:37:01,590 --> 02:36:58,880 [Music] 4459 02:37:02,230 --> 02:37:01,600 there have been an enormous number of 4460 02:37:05,349 --> 02:37:02,240 people 4461 02:37:07,349 --> 02:37:05,359 um around the world during um 4462 02:37:08,710 --> 02:37:07,359 lockdown and during the coronavirus 4463 02:37:11,429 --> 02:37:08,720 crisis with reduced 4464 02:37:12,230 --> 02:37:11,439 social contacts and changing points of 4465 02:37:14,870 --> 02:37:12,240 reference so 4466 02:37:16,630 --> 02:37:14,880 your old narratives your old models are 4467 02:37:18,309 --> 02:37:16,640 just not fit for purpose 4468 02:37:20,230 --> 02:37:18,319 and in a sense you've got to be able to 4469 02:37:22,550 --> 02:37:20,240 grieve for the things what that 4470 02:37:23,270 --> 02:37:22,560 your the way that things were and it's 4471 02:37:25,670 --> 02:37:23,280 quite 4472 02:37:27,349 --> 02:37:25,680 frightening to actually relearn how to 4473 02:37:30,230 --> 02:37:27,359 live even for a few months 4474 02:37:31,510 --> 02:37:30,240 um you're in in a new covered world and 4475 02:37:34,230 --> 02:37:31,520 certainly if there's been 4476 02:37:35,830 --> 02:37:34,240 um you know so changes in in social 4477 02:37:36,550 --> 02:37:35,840 distancing on the way that you interact 4478 02:37:39,590 --> 02:37:36,560 with people 4479 02:37:42,469 --> 02:37:39,600 and i should say also when and if 4480 02:37:43,429 --> 02:37:42,479 you um have to unlock that will also be 4481 02:37:45,429 --> 02:37:43,439 very uh you know 4482 02:37:46,630 --> 02:37:45,439 anxiety provoking as well because of the 4483 02:37:47,510 --> 02:37:46,640 uncertainty you've got to really learn 4484 02:37:49,750 --> 02:37:47,520 how to do it 4485 02:37:51,030 --> 02:37:49,760 so lots of my colleagues have had um 4486 02:37:54,389 --> 02:37:51,040 psychotic breaks 4487 02:37:56,309 --> 02:37:54,399 um and you i i talking to you i think 4488 02:37:57,830 --> 02:37:56,319 it's highly unlikely that you have any 4489 02:38:00,469 --> 02:37:57,840 form of psychosis 4490 02:38:02,070 --> 02:38:00,479 or indeed an acute psychotic episode 4491 02:38:04,389 --> 02:38:02,080 just by your composure 4492 02:38:05,670 --> 02:38:04,399 your theory of mind um a lot of other 4493 02:38:07,990 --> 02:38:05,680 non-verbal cues 4494 02:38:09,670 --> 02:38:08,000 however i do have many colleagues who've 4495 02:38:12,710 --> 02:38:09,680 actually had an acute psychotic 4496 02:38:14,309 --> 02:38:12,720 episode uh in response to this um 4497 02:38:16,630 --> 02:38:14,319 i been you know a lot of my close 4498 02:38:19,990 --> 02:38:16,640 colleagues have um 4499 02:38:21,190 --> 02:38:20,000 and it's perfectly natural they usually 4500 02:38:23,590 --> 02:38:21,200 last about sort of 4501 02:38:24,630 --> 02:38:23,600 um you know sort of a few weeks to a 4502 02:38:27,670 --> 02:38:24,640 month or two 4503 02:38:29,110 --> 02:38:27,680 um may respond to medication if if if 4504 02:38:30,950 --> 02:38:29,120 the person is becoming 4505 02:38:33,190 --> 02:38:30,960 sufficiently agitated or they're 4506 02:38:36,550 --> 02:38:33,200 worrying their their the close family 4507 02:38:38,389 --> 02:38:36,560 um you know it 4508 02:38:40,550 --> 02:38:38,399 needs containment pharmacologically 4509 02:38:41,349 --> 02:38:40,560 that's certainly viable if it gets that 4510 02:38:43,590 --> 02:38:41,359 far 4511 02:38:45,030 --> 02:38:43,600 usually it doesn't but the important 4512 02:38:45,670 --> 02:38:45,040 thing to know is this is perfectly 4513 02:38:48,790 --> 02:38:45,680 normal 4514 02:38:51,349 --> 02:38:48,800 you know um even if you haven't had a 4515 02:38:53,270 --> 02:38:51,359 psychotic episode if you had had 4516 02:38:55,510 --> 02:38:53,280 it's lots of people are going through 4517 02:38:58,389 --> 02:38:55,520 this which brings me to 4518 02:39:00,309 --> 02:38:58,399 the answer to your question um you can 4519 02:39:02,309 --> 02:39:00,319 certainly talk to your gp 4520 02:39:04,309 --> 02:39:02,319 um and talk to health care professionals 4521 02:39:08,309 --> 02:39:04,319 and mental health care professionals 4522 02:39:10,870 --> 02:39:08,319 and um there will be the option of 4523 02:39:11,510 --> 02:39:10,880 medication uh either to help with sleep 4524 02:39:14,469 --> 02:39:11,520 or to 4525 02:39:14,950 --> 02:39:14,479 if you actually did have a psychotic um 4526 02:39:17,270 --> 02:39:14,960 break 4527 02:39:18,469 --> 02:39:17,280 to take the edge off that and enable 4528 02:39:20,309 --> 02:39:18,479 everybody to cope with 4529 02:39:21,830 --> 02:39:20,319 you know with the consequences that's 4530 02:39:23,190 --> 02:39:21,840 always an option should you want to go 4531 02:39:25,510 --> 02:39:23,200 for it and you shouldn't feel 4532 02:39:26,230 --> 02:39:25,520 ashamed of doing that or in any way 4533 02:39:28,630 --> 02:39:26,240 hesitant 4534 02:39:30,150 --> 02:39:28,640 i have to say that the nature of these 4535 02:39:32,950 --> 02:39:30,160 episodes is such that 4536 02:39:34,469 --> 02:39:32,960 it won't be the person who has the 4537 02:39:36,630 --> 02:39:34,479 psychotic episode 4538 02:39:38,469 --> 02:39:36,640 who knows that they they need 4539 02:39:40,870 --> 02:39:38,479 containment and looking after 4540 02:39:42,469 --> 02:39:40,880 of a particular kind it's usually the 4541 02:39:43,270 --> 02:39:42,479 the next of kin their children their 4542 02:39:45,429 --> 02:39:43,280 parents or 4543 02:39:47,030 --> 02:39:45,439 or their wife or their husband uh who 4544 02:39:48,870 --> 02:39:47,040 has to take the initiative to 4545 02:39:50,710 --> 02:39:48,880 to bring in support and help to get that 4546 02:39:52,550 --> 02:39:50,720 done and that help is there 4547 02:39:53,750 --> 02:39:52,560 the very fact you're worrying about it 4548 02:39:56,469 --> 02:39:53,760 because you're 4549 02:39:57,429 --> 02:39:56,479 you're almost by definition it can't be 4550 02:39:59,910 --> 02:39:57,439 psychotic because you 4551 02:40:00,550 --> 02:39:59,920 you've got inside uh so just by worrying 4552 02:40:03,590 --> 02:40:00,560 about it i'm 4553 02:40:04,950 --> 02:40:03,600 afraid uh takes you off that list um but 4554 02:40:06,389 --> 02:40:04,960 it doesn't mean to say the anxiety 4555 02:40:07,910 --> 02:40:06,399 doesn't go away doesn't mean 4556 02:40:10,230 --> 02:40:07,920 you can't you're not actually uh 4557 02:40:11,110 --> 02:40:10,240 psychotic and the other thing which 4558 02:40:13,910 --> 02:40:11,120 which 4559 02:40:14,790 --> 02:40:13,920 really helps um is just what you've 4560 02:40:17,030 --> 02:40:14,800 already said 4561 02:40:17,990 --> 02:40:17,040 it it's basically sharing in the group 4562 02:40:20,230 --> 02:40:18,000 so you know 4563 02:40:21,670 --> 02:40:20,240 the angst that these things generate and 4564 02:40:23,830 --> 02:40:21,680 the you know whether it's a psychotic 4565 02:40:24,550 --> 02:40:23,840 break or not always worrying about it or 4566 02:40:27,429 --> 02:40:24,560 not 4567 02:40:28,950 --> 02:40:27,439 everybody's going through this um and 4568 02:40:32,469 --> 02:40:28,960 being able to share that 4569 02:40:33,429 --> 02:40:32,479 in a group is uh can be enormously 4570 02:40:35,990 --> 02:40:33,439 therapeutic 4571 02:40:37,670 --> 02:40:36,000 for everybody in in the group you know 4572 02:40:40,550 --> 02:40:37,680 so if you can set up 4573 02:40:41,269 --> 02:40:40,560 by sharing a safe environment within 4574 02:40:44,309 --> 02:40:41,279 which 4575 02:40:46,710 --> 02:40:44,319 to share these experiences and anxieties 4576 02:40:48,870 --> 02:40:46,720 and by safe i mean very clearly bounded 4577 02:40:50,150 --> 02:40:48,880 so it starts at a particular time and it 4578 02:40:52,150 --> 02:40:50,160 finishes exactly 4579 02:40:53,190 --> 02:40:52,160 one hour later so you've got this 4580 02:40:55,670 --> 02:40:53,200 boundary so that 4581 02:40:57,110 --> 02:40:55,680 anything that comes out in that context 4582 02:40:59,990 --> 02:40:57,120 can't spill over 4583 02:41:00,389 --> 02:41:00,000 and affect um and can be put back in the 4584 02:41:04,469 --> 02:41:00,399 box 4585 02:41:06,550 --> 02:41:04,479 next week or tomorrow 4586 02:41:08,070 --> 02:41:06,560 with a very very carefree time you know 4587 02:41:09,670 --> 02:41:08,080 who's going to be there 4588 02:41:11,510 --> 02:41:09,680 or you know what kind of people are 4589 02:41:12,870 --> 02:41:11,520 going to be there so boundaries are very 4590 02:41:13,670 --> 02:41:12,880 very important when it comes to group 4591 02:41:16,469 --> 02:41:13,680 therapy that 4592 02:41:17,670 --> 02:41:16,479 that in my in my experience that's the 4593 02:41:19,670 --> 02:41:17,680 most effective 4594 02:41:20,710 --> 02:41:19,680 kind of talking therapy in this 4595 02:41:22,950 --> 02:41:20,720 situation 4596 02:41:24,230 --> 02:41:22,960 how do you get a group together you have 4597 02:41:27,190 --> 02:41:24,240 to say well this is a 4598 02:41:28,950 --> 02:41:27,200 a thing um how do you do that you just 4599 02:41:31,269 --> 02:41:28,960 have to declare you have to come out say 4600 02:41:31,990 --> 02:41:31,279 i'm upset by this i can't get to sleep 4601 02:41:34,550 --> 02:41:32,000 because of this 4602 02:41:36,150 --> 02:41:34,560 this you know you know if i'd told 4603 02:41:37,830 --> 02:41:36,160 myself these worries a year ago i 4604 02:41:39,190 --> 02:41:37,840 thought i was stupid but these are real 4605 02:41:41,750 --> 02:41:39,200 worries they're stopping me 4606 02:41:42,790 --> 02:41:41,760 thinking i can't you know just saying 4607 02:41:44,790 --> 02:41:42,800 that out loud 4608 02:41:45,910 --> 02:41:44,800 means that other people now are aware 4609 02:41:47,030 --> 02:41:45,920 that this is a thing 4610 02:41:49,269 --> 02:41:47,040 and it's something that can be talked 4611 02:41:51,830 --> 02:41:49,279 about so when i said you've just done it 4612 02:41:52,870 --> 02:41:51,840 by just going public in this kind of 4613 02:41:55,830 --> 02:41:52,880 interview 4614 02:41:56,790 --> 02:41:55,840 is the first move the next move is then 4615 02:41:59,990 --> 02:41:56,800 to find 4616 02:42:03,110 --> 02:42:00,000 um you know a a a network 4617 02:42:05,990 --> 02:42:03,120 or a structure that will support um 4618 02:42:06,790 --> 02:42:06,000 either therapist-led or self-help groups 4619 02:42:10,150 --> 02:42:06,800 usually 4620 02:42:11,990 --> 02:42:10,160 small enough that you actually have the 4621 02:42:14,150 --> 02:42:12,000 the intimacy of a small group dynamic 4622 02:42:16,230 --> 02:42:14,160 you know so not more than 12 people 4623 02:42:17,670 --> 02:42:16,240 you usually about so eight people with 4624 02:42:19,030 --> 02:42:17,680 or without a therapist 4625 02:42:21,990 --> 02:42:19,040 you don't need the therapist but it's 4626 02:42:24,469 --> 02:42:22,000 useful um you know if somebody is 4627 02:42:26,070 --> 02:42:24,479 just to get used to the importance of 4628 02:42:28,230 --> 02:42:26,080 boundaries and 4629 02:42:29,269 --> 02:42:28,240 um and group dynamics but it's not 4630 02:42:30,550 --> 02:42:29,279 necessary if 4631 02:42:34,070 --> 02:42:30,560 you know the important things you're 4632 02:42:37,110 --> 02:42:34,080 getting together in a bounded way 4633 02:42:40,469 --> 02:42:37,120 um to to you know to to share 4634 02:42:43,269 --> 02:42:40,479 and um and to just in 4635 02:42:43,830 --> 02:42:43,279 a completely open and non-judgmental way 4636 02:42:45,670 --> 02:42:43,840 um 4637 02:42:47,510 --> 02:42:45,680 tell other people how what they are 4638 02:42:50,469 --> 02:42:47,520 saying makes you feel 4639 02:42:51,830 --> 02:42:50,479 um and just use them to reflect 4640 02:42:53,190 --> 02:42:51,840 literally like a mirror 4641 02:42:55,110 --> 02:42:53,200 you know so come back to the shared 4642 02:42:57,670 --> 02:42:55,120 narrative again and you can 4643 02:42:59,429 --> 02:42:57,680 you can get a long way with that so um 4644 02:43:01,110 --> 02:42:59,439 that that's what i would recommend that 4645 02:43:03,190 --> 02:43:01,120 you you you know 4646 02:43:04,950 --> 02:43:03,200 somebody in your position may well feel 4647 02:43:06,870 --> 02:43:04,960 that perhaps you should start 4648 02:43:08,230 --> 02:43:06,880 um an initiative along these lines or 4649 02:43:09,750 --> 02:43:08,240 actually start you 4650 02:43:11,269 --> 02:43:09,760 you should take the initiative and 4651 02:43:13,910 --> 02:43:11,279 actually set up 4652 02:43:14,309 --> 02:43:13,920 a discussion group or a self-help group 4653 02:43:16,309 --> 02:43:14,319 um 4654 02:43:18,230 --> 02:43:16,319 but if not then certainly look around on 4655 02:43:21,990 --> 02:43:18,240 the web and i'm sure you'll find 4656 02:43:25,110 --> 02:43:22,000 um you know some somebody over the past 4657 02:43:26,150 --> 02:43:25,120 few months um and uh we will have 4658 02:43:29,910 --> 02:43:26,160 started this 4659 02:43:33,269 --> 02:43:29,920 um and be mindful 4660 02:43:35,429 --> 02:43:33,279 that you should tell your wife 4661 02:43:37,110 --> 02:43:35,439 if you do get a psychotic yeah just kind 4662 02:43:39,110 --> 02:43:37,120 of get the doctors into 4663 02:43:40,870 --> 02:43:39,120 to get you medicated because that'll go 4664 02:43:42,710 --> 02:43:40,880 away in about three weeks once you 4665 02:43:44,870 --> 02:43:42,720 you know if you just take the right kind 4666 02:43:46,550 --> 02:43:44,880 of medication it's not a big thing 4667 02:43:48,630 --> 02:43:46,560 you know i repeat it's happened to 4668 02:43:50,870 --> 02:43:48,640 several of my colleagues and friends 4669 02:43:52,070 --> 02:43:50,880 um and you know they're back in the 4670 02:43:53,670 --> 02:43:52,080 saddle now 4671 02:43:55,670 --> 02:43:53,680 and it's been a useful experience 4672 02:43:57,590 --> 02:43:55,680 sometimes people get um 4673 02:43:58,790 --> 02:43:57,600 they get more creative they go slightly 4674 02:44:02,070 --> 02:43:58,800 manic 4675 02:44:03,670 --> 02:44:02,080 i don't sense that in you but um 4676 02:44:05,429 --> 02:44:03,680 i do notice that when i was having my 4677 02:44:06,550 --> 02:44:05,439 high anxiety periods right after the 4678 02:44:09,190 --> 02:44:06,560 initial episode 4679 02:44:10,230 --> 02:44:09,200 that i saw many more connections almost 4680 02:44:12,950 --> 02:44:10,240 like i imagine 4681 02:44:14,790 --> 02:44:12,960 when you're on lsd or a psychedelic that 4682 02:44:16,550 --> 02:44:14,800 everything is imbued with meaning 4683 02:44:18,630 --> 02:44:16,560 that every other sentence someone would 4684 02:44:19,110 --> 02:44:18,640 say in a movie i'm like oh that's so 4685 02:44:21,750 --> 02:44:19,120 deep 4686 02:44:22,630 --> 02:44:21,760 that it makes me want to cry almost now 4687 02:44:25,590 --> 02:44:22,640 that's not there 4688 02:44:27,349 --> 02:44:25,600 i still do see connections but i tend to 4689 02:44:30,870 --> 02:44:27,359 have always seen connections to some 4690 02:44:32,950 --> 02:44:30,880 degree anyway yeah so i mean 4691 02:44:34,309 --> 02:44:32,960 these episodes um will either just 4692 02:44:37,030 --> 02:44:34,319 reveal innate sort of 4693 02:44:38,790 --> 02:44:37,040 you know ways of thinking and seeing and 4694 02:44:41,910 --> 02:44:38,800 making sense of the world 4695 02:44:44,710 --> 02:44:41,920 in particular pro-social context um 4696 02:44:45,590 --> 02:44:44,720 but but certainly you know what i was 4697 02:44:47,590 --> 02:44:45,600 going to say is that 4698 02:44:49,429 --> 02:44:47,600 there can be some um if you keep a 4699 02:44:51,429 --> 02:44:49,439 record of these 4700 02:44:52,469 --> 02:44:51,439 if you can if you just see associations 4701 02:44:55,429 --> 02:44:52,479 and links and just 4702 02:44:57,590 --> 02:44:55,439 keep a documentary every record of it it 4703 02:45:00,389 --> 02:44:57,600 may actually be something quite useful 4704 02:45:02,309 --> 02:45:00,399 either to go back to as a you know an 4705 02:45:03,429 --> 02:45:02,319 essay in the way that you saw the world 4706 02:45:05,110 --> 02:45:03,439 in that particular state of that 4707 02:45:05,910 --> 02:45:05,120 particular time but sometimes you 4708 02:45:08,230 --> 02:45:05,920 actually get some 4709 02:45:09,750 --> 02:45:08,240 quite profound insights you know again a 4710 02:45:11,990 --> 02:45:09,760 number of my colleagues actually do 4711 02:45:13,190 --> 02:45:12,000 suffer from manic depressive psychosis 4712 02:45:15,990 --> 02:45:13,200 uh and of course if you look at the 4713 02:45:17,830 --> 02:45:16,000 history of of your creative people 4714 02:45:19,030 --> 02:45:17,840 in both the you know the arts and the 4715 02:45:20,790 --> 02:45:19,040 sciences uh 4716 02:45:22,070 --> 02:45:20,800 you know you're you're on this edge of 4717 02:45:24,389 --> 02:45:22,080 chaos 4718 02:45:25,750 --> 02:45:24,399 this the the instability that is 4719 02:45:28,550 --> 02:45:25,760 associated with um 4720 02:45:29,990 --> 02:45:28,560 with psychosis so it's not an 4721 02:45:33,030 --> 02:45:30,000 unproductive 4722 02:45:34,870 --> 02:45:33,040 time um you know if you are if you did 4723 02:45:36,070 --> 02:45:34,880 get close to the edge then then make 4724 02:45:39,110 --> 02:45:36,080 sure you keep a very 4725 02:45:41,349 --> 02:45:39,120 um if you can keep a very clear document 4726 02:45:42,630 --> 02:45:41,359 doc document what happened to you and 4727 02:45:44,790 --> 02:45:42,640 everything you can 4728 02:45:45,910 --> 02:45:44,800 this would be nice for you to go back to 4729 02:45:47,990 --> 02:45:45,920 next year yeah i 4730 02:45:49,670 --> 02:45:48,000 definitely take notes on all my thoughts 4731 02:45:51,750 --> 02:45:49,680 i've done so for years anyway 4732 02:45:53,429 --> 02:45:51,760 i'm always constantly saying i can't say 4733 02:45:55,910 --> 02:45:53,439 now cause it'll turn on but 4734 02:45:58,389 --> 02:45:55,920 okay and then the name of my device and 4735 02:46:00,630 --> 02:45:58,399 then i say make notes and so on so on 4736 02:46:02,469 --> 02:46:00,640 yeah okay well thank you so much doc i 4737 02:46:04,150 --> 02:46:02,479 want to say doctor thank you so much 4738 02:46:05,510 --> 02:46:04,160 professor you are a doctor obviously 4739 02:46:07,670 --> 02:46:05,520 professors 4740 02:46:09,269 --> 02:46:07,680 thank you so much carl there was a 4741 02:46:11,030 --> 02:46:09,279 statement that you said before 4742 02:46:13,349 --> 02:46:11,040 many times actually it's that you are 4743 02:46:14,950 --> 02:46:13,359 your own existence proof 4744 02:46:19,190 --> 02:46:14,960 can you explain what that is what that 4745 02:46:25,349 --> 02:46:23,269 it is one of those deflationary um 4746 02:46:26,389 --> 02:46:25,359 summaries of the free energy principle 4747 02:46:29,110 --> 02:46:26,399 that says 4748 02:46:30,230 --> 02:46:29,120 the very fact you exist tells you a lot 4749 02:46:32,389 --> 02:46:30,240 about 4750 02:46:34,230 --> 02:46:32,399 the mechanics and the things that you 4751 02:46:34,710 --> 02:46:34,240 must do or the properties that you must 4752 02:46:37,670 --> 02:46:34,720 possess 4753 02:46:38,469 --> 02:46:37,680 in order to exist so you turn that on 4754 02:46:40,950 --> 02:46:38,479 its head 4755 02:46:43,030 --> 02:46:40,960 and the fact that you exist is proof of 4756 02:46:46,550 --> 02:46:43,040 your own existence again in this 4757 02:46:50,150 --> 02:46:46,560 tautological sense um 4758 02:46:51,429 --> 02:46:50,160 you could also read it as one way of um 4759 02:46:53,590 --> 02:46:51,439 encapsulating the notion of 4760 02:46:57,230 --> 02:46:53,600 self-evidencing so 4761 02:47:00,550 --> 02:46:57,240 if you read um 4762 02:47:04,150 --> 02:47:00,560 self-organization as 4763 02:47:07,590 --> 02:47:04,160 a system trying to minimize its 4764 02:47:10,870 --> 02:47:07,600 free energy or maximize the evidence 4765 02:47:12,790 --> 02:47:10,880 for its models of the world then 4766 02:47:14,070 --> 02:47:12,800 what you can say is that these kinds of 4767 02:47:17,190 --> 02:47:14,080 systems 4768 02:47:18,830 --> 02:47:17,200 change in such a way to increase the 4769 02:47:22,469 --> 02:47:18,840 evidence for their own 4770 02:47:24,630 --> 02:47:22,479 existence so it comes to 4771 02:47:27,030 --> 02:47:24,640 um very close to the notion of this 4772 02:47:30,469 --> 02:47:27,040 self-fulfilling prophecy that you know 4773 02:47:32,790 --> 02:47:30,479 i expect to exist um 4774 02:47:33,590 --> 02:47:32,800 and i'm going to act on the world in a 4775 02:47:36,309 --> 02:47:33,600 way 4776 02:47:38,230 --> 02:47:36,319 that solicits or secures evidence for 4777 02:47:40,790 --> 02:47:38,240 that existence and if i have a good 4778 02:47:41,990 --> 02:47:40,800 model of that world then i will be 4779 02:47:44,950 --> 02:47:42,000 successful 4780 02:47:45,590 --> 02:47:44,960 in soliciting that evidence and in so 4781 02:47:48,870 --> 02:47:45,600 doing 4782 02:47:51,590 --> 02:47:48,880 i will persevere and i will simply exist 4783 02:47:52,389 --> 02:47:51,600 and i look as if i'm self evidencing and 4784 02:47:54,950 --> 02:47:52,399 of course 4785 02:47:56,070 --> 02:47:54,960 evidence for what well evidence to prove 4786 02:47:59,510 --> 02:47:56,080 that i exist 4787 02:48:03,030 --> 02:47:59,520 so it's it's a rather sort of um cheeky 4788 02:48:05,670 --> 02:48:03,040 um way of celebrating the 4789 02:48:06,790 --> 02:48:05,680 the tautology of existence in the in in 4790 02:48:09,110 --> 02:48:06,800 the sense that 4791 02:48:10,389 --> 02:48:09,120 just existing is really all you need to 4792 02:48:12,150 --> 02:48:10,399 know and you can 4793 02:48:13,590 --> 02:48:12,160 spin off everything else all the 4794 02:48:16,469 --> 02:48:13,600 attributes of 4795 02:48:17,349 --> 02:48:16,479 artifacts particles people plants that 4796 02:48:21,990 --> 02:48:17,359 exist 4797 02:48:23,910 --> 02:48:22,000 what happens if you start looking for 4798 02:48:25,910 --> 02:48:23,920 evidence that you don't exist 4799 02:48:27,590 --> 02:48:25,920 like let's say you're on the eastern end 4800 02:48:29,269 --> 02:48:27,600 of the philosophical spectrum 4801 02:48:31,110 --> 02:48:29,279 and you say that the eye is illusory 4802 02:48:33,590 --> 02:48:31,120 that maybe this is all a dream 4803 02:48:34,469 --> 02:48:33,600 whatever that may be what happens is 4804 02:48:37,349 --> 02:48:34,479 that 4805 02:48:39,110 --> 02:48:37,359 you look for evidence of your 4806 02:48:41,190 --> 02:48:39,120 non-existence can you think yourself 4807 02:48:43,750 --> 02:48:41,200 into non-existence i know that 4808 02:48:45,030 --> 02:48:43,760 likely not but please run with that idea 4809 02:48:47,190 --> 02:48:45,040 oh well 4810 02:48:48,230 --> 02:48:47,200 you know it's a wonderful question i 4811 02:48:50,230 --> 02:48:48,240 mean yes i think you 4812 02:48:52,070 --> 02:48:50,240 you could certainly um think yourself 4813 02:48:54,150 --> 02:48:52,080 into non-existence i mean just 4814 02:48:55,750 --> 02:48:54,160 you know a trivial thought experiment 4815 02:48:58,389 --> 02:48:55,760 would be somebody who's a very 4816 02:48:59,590 --> 02:48:58,399 committed meditator who forgets to drink 4817 02:49:02,950 --> 02:48:59,600 or eat 4818 02:49:04,950 --> 02:49:02,960 and dies through dehydration um so no it 4819 02:49:06,790 --> 02:49:04,960 is certainly possible 4820 02:49:08,070 --> 02:49:06,800 it's a wonderful question because it it 4821 02:49:10,710 --> 02:49:08,080 speaks to something in 4822 02:49:11,990 --> 02:49:10,720 um philosophy called the dark room 4823 02:49:15,590 --> 02:49:12,000 problem 4824 02:49:19,349 --> 02:49:15,600 so it is certainly possible to simulate 4825 02:49:20,469 --> 02:49:19,359 in silico in computers and agents that 4826 02:49:24,230 --> 02:49:20,479 deliberately 4827 02:49:27,750 --> 02:49:24,240 do not believe that they exist and 4828 02:49:30,870 --> 02:49:27,760 will avoid sampling data that would 4829 02:49:31,910 --> 02:49:30,880 otherwise um provide evidence for their 4830 02:49:33,830 --> 02:49:31,920 existence 4831 02:49:36,230 --> 02:49:33,840 and what that translates into is 4832 02:49:39,269 --> 02:49:36,240 essentially um 4833 02:49:41,910 --> 02:49:39,279 an artifact or a creature that 4834 02:49:43,750 --> 02:49:41,920 turns off the lights it you know 4835 02:49:45,429 --> 02:49:43,760 deliberately avoids any 4836 02:49:47,750 --> 02:49:45,439 information from the world and 4837 02:49:49,110 --> 02:49:47,760 sequesters itself from the world but in 4838 02:49:51,510 --> 02:49:49,120 so doing of course 4839 02:49:53,429 --> 02:49:51,520 um there are profound implications for 4840 02:49:55,830 --> 02:49:53,439 its homeostasis 4841 02:49:56,630 --> 02:49:55,840 and you know from a sensory point of 4842 02:49:58,870 --> 02:49:56,640 view it 4843 02:50:00,389 --> 02:49:58,880 hides away in dark corners and is now 4844 02:50:03,830 --> 02:50:00,399 subject to the dark room 4845 02:50:05,670 --> 02:50:03,840 problem um but at the same time 4846 02:50:07,990 --> 02:50:05,680 it will not be able to maintain its 4847 02:50:10,230 --> 02:50:08,000 markov uh blanket 4848 02:50:11,990 --> 02:50:10,240 and ultimately it will dissipate so if 4849 02:50:15,030 --> 02:50:12,000 it doesn't comply 4850 02:50:16,309 --> 02:50:15,040 with the existential principles that 4851 02:50:18,230 --> 02:50:16,319 maintain 4852 02:50:19,910 --> 02:50:18,240 its structure and form and its 4853 02:50:22,790 --> 02:50:19,920 organization technically 4854 02:50:23,830 --> 02:50:22,800 if it doesn't um comply with the 4855 02:50:25,429 --> 02:50:23,840 principles that 4856 02:50:27,190 --> 02:50:25,439 underwrite the maintenance of a markov 4857 02:50:28,870 --> 02:50:27,200 blanket then that markov blanket will 4858 02:50:31,830 --> 02:50:28,880 cease to exist and so 4859 02:50:32,230 --> 02:50:31,840 will you if you are that markov blanket 4860 02:50:34,070 --> 02:50:32,240 so 4861 02:50:35,590 --> 02:50:34,080 you know it's practically a very very 4862 02:50:38,550 --> 02:50:35,600 interesting 4863 02:50:39,429 --> 02:50:38,560 question because um it all rests upon 4864 02:50:41,750 --> 02:50:39,439 having a good 4865 02:50:42,469 --> 02:50:41,760 generative model of the world so you 4866 02:50:44,790 --> 02:50:42,479 know 4867 02:50:45,750 --> 02:50:44,800 there's a sort of dual dependency here 4868 02:50:48,790 --> 02:50:45,760 that you know 4869 02:50:50,630 --> 02:50:48,800 it looks as if creatures that or systems 4870 02:50:53,030 --> 02:50:50,640 more generally that exist 4871 02:50:54,230 --> 02:50:53,040 are seeking out evidence for their 4872 02:50:56,230 --> 02:50:54,240 internal model 4873 02:50:57,590 --> 02:50:56,240 of how the world works and how the world 4874 02:51:00,710 --> 02:50:57,600 generates its 4875 02:51:02,830 --> 02:51:00,720 sensory samples and that's 4876 02:51:04,309 --> 02:51:02,840 only an apt explanation for 4877 02:51:07,429 --> 02:51:04,319 self-organization 4878 02:51:10,870 --> 02:51:07,439 if the generative model is a fair 4879 02:51:13,510 --> 02:51:10,880 or a good enough explanation for the way 4880 02:51:16,070 --> 02:51:13,520 that those sensory samples are generated 4881 02:51:17,429 --> 02:51:16,080 um technically that's an idea which 4882 02:51:18,870 --> 02:51:17,439 dates back to the inception of 4883 02:51:21,030 --> 02:51:18,880 cybernetics 4884 02:51:23,190 --> 02:51:21,040 in the early half of the 20th century 4885 02:51:26,389 --> 02:51:23,200 known as a good regulator theorem that 4886 02:51:27,510 --> 02:51:26,399 in order to regulate to to control to 4887 02:51:31,030 --> 02:51:27,520 survive 4888 02:51:33,830 --> 02:51:31,040 in your environment you have to be 4889 02:51:34,309 --> 02:51:33,840 effectively a model of that environment 4890 02:51:37,830 --> 02:51:34,319 so 4891 02:51:41,510 --> 02:51:37,840 your whether you're a thermostat or um 4892 02:51:44,150 --> 02:51:41,520 or a person you know your structure 4893 02:51:45,429 --> 02:51:44,160 and the way that you exchange with the 4894 02:51:48,469 --> 02:51:45,439 environment 4895 02:51:50,230 --> 02:51:48,479 works 4896 02:51:51,670 --> 02:51:50,240 when you are a good model of that 4897 02:51:53,349 --> 02:51:51,680 environment 4898 02:51:54,790 --> 02:51:53,359 when you say generative model what's the 4899 02:51:56,710 --> 02:51:54,800 difference between a generative model 4900 02:51:58,230 --> 02:51:56,720 and just a model 4901 02:52:01,349 --> 02:51:58,240 um well genetic model is just a 4902 02:52:04,469 --> 02:52:01,359 technical term yeah strictly speaking it 4903 02:52:06,950 --> 02:52:04,479 it's just a specification of the 4904 02:52:08,790 --> 02:52:06,960 probabilistic relationship between 4905 02:52:11,670 --> 02:52:08,800 causes and consequences so 4906 02:52:13,590 --> 02:52:11,680 you literally you write down um a 4907 02:52:15,030 --> 02:52:13,600 probability density or a probability 4908 02:52:16,950 --> 02:52:15,040 distribution over causes and 4909 02:52:19,349 --> 02:52:16,960 consequences 4910 02:52:20,389 --> 02:52:19,359 and that allows you then to evaluate the 4911 02:52:23,750 --> 02:52:20,399 evidence 4912 02:52:26,469 --> 02:52:23,760 in some data for that model 4913 02:52:28,630 --> 02:52:26,479 so in this instance the causes are 4914 02:52:31,510 --> 02:52:28,640 unobservable sometimes referred to 4915 02:52:32,389 --> 02:52:31,520 as latent or hidden states say of a 4916 02:52:35,030 --> 02:52:32,399 world 4917 02:52:36,150 --> 02:52:35,040 and the consequences are observable 4918 02:52:39,110 --> 02:52:36,160 consequences 4919 02:52:40,469 --> 02:52:39,120 say sensory samples that we solicit with 4920 02:52:43,830 --> 02:52:40,479 our sensory epithelia 4921 02:52:47,030 --> 02:52:43,840 our eyes our ears or indeed our 4922 02:52:49,269 --> 02:52:47,040 our interception so the genitive model 4923 02:52:50,389 --> 02:52:49,279 read like that is just a probabilistic 4924 02:52:53,670 --> 02:52:50,399 specification 4925 02:52:56,230 --> 02:52:53,680 of how hidden or latent states hidden 4926 02:52:59,510 --> 02:52:56,240 behind say a markov blanket 4927 02:53:01,110 --> 02:52:59,520 generate observable consequences and if 4928 02:53:05,429 --> 02:53:01,120 you've got that model 4929 02:53:07,910 --> 02:53:05,439 then you can assess how likely 4930 02:53:09,750 --> 02:53:07,920 those sensory samples those sensations 4931 02:53:12,070 --> 02:53:09,760 as sensory impressions 4932 02:53:13,269 --> 02:53:12,080 were under your model and if they were 4933 02:53:15,510 --> 02:53:13,279 very likely you're not going to be 4934 02:53:16,870 --> 02:53:15,520 surprised 4935 02:53:19,110 --> 02:53:16,880 and you know that you've got a good 4936 02:53:20,070 --> 02:53:19,120 model of the world if you're constantly 4937 02:53:22,550 --> 02:53:20,080 surprised 4938 02:53:23,750 --> 02:53:22,560 unable to predict then you've got a bad 4939 02:53:26,389 --> 02:53:23,760 model of the world 4940 02:53:27,830 --> 02:53:26,399 and remember that surprise can also be 4941 02:53:31,110 --> 02:53:27,840 used as prediction error 4942 02:53:34,309 --> 02:53:31,120 so if you constantly subject yourself 4943 02:53:35,910 --> 02:53:34,319 actively to lots of prediction errors 4944 02:53:37,670 --> 02:53:35,920 you're going to be constantly surprised 4945 02:53:39,429 --> 02:53:37,680 in the state of high free energy 4946 02:53:41,110 --> 02:53:39,439 but think about what that means these 4947 02:53:42,630 --> 02:53:41,120 are not just prediction errors 4948 02:53:44,469 --> 02:53:42,640 in fact they are not prediction errors 4949 02:53:46,550 --> 02:53:44,479 of a sort of personal sort 4950 02:53:48,309 --> 02:53:46,560 you know a propositional thing i could i 4951 02:53:50,870 --> 02:53:48,319 could say oh i didn't expect that 4952 02:53:52,790 --> 02:53:50,880 these are sort of um fundamental 4953 02:53:54,469 --> 02:53:52,800 deviations from your expectations like 4954 02:53:57,349 --> 02:53:54,479 your bodily temperature 4955 02:53:57,910 --> 02:53:57,359 um the amount of blood sugar that you 4956 02:54:01,349 --> 02:53:57,920 your 4957 02:54:03,670 --> 02:54:01,359 so when these get 4958 02:54:05,670 --> 02:54:03,680 out of physiological bounds you start to 4959 02:54:08,070 --> 02:54:05,680 literally disintegrate and die 4960 02:54:09,349 --> 02:54:08,080 and your markov blanket dissolves so 4961 02:54:12,710 --> 02:54:09,359 it's important to keep these 4962 02:54:13,990 --> 02:54:12,720 prediction errors within bounds or 4963 02:54:16,309 --> 02:54:14,000 in the language of the free energy 4964 02:54:19,429 --> 02:54:16,319 principle to you to keep on top 4965 02:54:22,309 --> 02:54:19,439 of your surprise self-information 4966 02:54:24,710 --> 02:54:22,319 or free energy all words for essentially 4967 02:54:26,309 --> 02:54:24,720 the same thing 4968 02:54:28,309 --> 02:54:26,319 okay what do you make of donald 4969 02:54:32,230 --> 02:54:28,319 hoffman's ideas on consciousness 4970 02:54:34,389 --> 02:54:32,240 i know that's broad right yeah 4971 02:54:36,710 --> 02:54:34,399 i had a mentor once called um jerry 4972 02:54:39,269 --> 02:54:36,720 edelman as a nobel laureate uh 4973 02:54:40,790 --> 02:54:39,279 famed for uh understanding the 4974 02:54:43,910 --> 02:54:40,800 evolutionary basis of 4975 02:54:46,309 --> 02:54:43,920 um our immune systems 4976 02:54:47,990 --> 02:54:46,319 uh uh he used to call me an intellectual 4977 02:54:51,030 --> 02:54:48,000 thug because i didn't 4978 02:54:54,870 --> 02:54:51,040 know anything outside of my own sphere 4979 02:54:56,550 --> 02:54:54,880 so if you tell me um what uh 4980 02:54:58,150 --> 02:54:56,560 yeah so forget about that forget about 4981 02:55:00,150 --> 02:54:58,160 because in order for me to say that it 4982 02:55:01,590 --> 02:55:00,160 would take too much time in them 4983 02:55:03,590 --> 02:55:01,600 and i probably wouldn't do it service 4984 02:55:04,630 --> 02:55:03,600 okay how about orchestrated objective 4985 02:55:07,510 --> 02:55:04,640 reduction from 4986 02:55:08,790 --> 02:55:07,520 penrose roger penrose stewart hammer off 4987 02:55:12,230 --> 02:55:08,800 if you've heard of them 4988 02:55:15,590 --> 02:55:12,240 yes yes yes certainly um so 4989 02:55:16,150 --> 02:55:15,600 yeah i certainly read um roger penrose's 4990 02:55:19,269 --> 02:55:16,160 uh 4991 02:55:23,030 --> 02:55:19,279 new mind 4992 02:55:25,110 --> 02:55:23,040 um so um so what what what 4993 02:55:26,790 --> 02:55:25,120 sorry can you repeat well yeah what do 4994 02:55:28,950 --> 02:55:26,800 you think what do you think about it 4995 02:55:32,150 --> 02:55:28,960 does it comport with your theory 4996 02:55:35,269 --> 02:55:32,160 does it contradict it do you think it's 4997 02:55:37,030 --> 02:55:35,279 too unfalsifiable do you like it do you 4998 02:55:38,950 --> 02:55:37,040 think it's creative like what are your 4999 02:55:42,150 --> 02:55:38,960 broad thoughts about it 5000 02:55:43,510 --> 02:55:42,160 um i think it's entertaining um so i'm 5001 02:55:45,910 --> 02:55:43,520 going to lump that in 5002 02:55:47,349 --> 02:55:45,920 with um quantum theories of 5003 02:55:50,469 --> 02:55:47,359 consciousness or you know 5004 02:55:53,990 --> 02:55:50,479 um which is entertaining 5005 02:55:56,150 --> 02:55:54,000 um i don't see it as a serious 5006 02:55:59,110 --> 02:55:56,160 contender that offers any explanatory 5007 02:56:01,349 --> 02:55:59,120 power in terms of sentient behavior 5008 02:56:02,309 --> 02:56:01,359 i should say of course the you know my 5009 02:56:03,830 --> 02:56:02,319 work um 5010 02:56:05,750 --> 02:56:03,840 with the free energy principle and 5011 02:56:08,230 --> 02:56:05,760 things like active inference 5012 02:56:09,910 --> 02:56:08,240 these are not theories of consciousness 5013 02:56:13,269 --> 02:56:09,920 they can certainly be deployed 5014 02:56:14,550 --> 02:56:13,279 to set some parameters on questions that 5015 02:56:16,309 --> 02:56:14,560 arise in consciousness 5016 02:56:17,990 --> 02:56:16,319 uh research but in and of themselves 5017 02:56:20,469 --> 02:56:18,000 that they're not there is 5018 02:56:21,590 --> 02:56:20,479 um or principles that would underwrite 5019 02:56:24,630 --> 02:56:21,600 consciousness 5020 02:56:27,269 --> 02:56:24,640 um having said that 5021 02:56:28,309 --> 02:56:27,279 you know they do tell you where the 5022 02:56:32,309 --> 02:56:28,319 mechanics 5023 02:56:34,870 --> 02:56:32,319 of sentience 5024 02:56:36,469 --> 02:56:34,880 lie in the physical world and it is not 5025 02:56:39,910 --> 02:56:36,479 at the quantum level 5026 02:56:41,190 --> 02:56:39,920 um so you know from the perspective of a 5027 02:56:44,469 --> 02:56:41,200 theory of every 5028 02:56:47,910 --> 02:56:44,479 space thing and the you know there 5029 02:56:49,670 --> 02:56:47,920 are there is a a range um 5030 02:56:51,910 --> 02:56:49,680 you can formalize mathematically under 5031 02:56:54,550 --> 02:56:51,920 things like the renormalization group 5032 02:56:55,750 --> 02:56:54,560 of things you can have very very small 5033 02:56:57,830 --> 02:56:55,760 things that have 5034 02:56:59,349 --> 02:56:57,840 very large amplitude random fluctuations 5035 02:57:01,750 --> 02:56:59,359 very very fast things 5036 02:57:03,830 --> 02:57:01,760 you can have very very big things very 5037 02:57:05,830 --> 02:57:03,840 slow things very cool things 5038 02:57:07,030 --> 02:57:05,840 that where the the other randomness 5039 02:57:09,750 --> 02:57:07,040 averages the way 5040 02:57:12,389 --> 02:57:09,760 so you know one can envisage this as a 5041 02:57:15,429 --> 02:57:12,399 spectrum between quantum mechanics 5042 02:57:18,230 --> 02:57:15,439 um at the very fast small 5043 02:57:18,870 --> 02:57:18,240 end and classical mechanics at the very 5044 02:57:21,990 --> 02:57:18,880 very 5045 02:57:24,389 --> 02:57:22,000 slow large end of the song that would 5046 02:57:25,269 --> 02:57:24,399 describe the the orbits of heavenly 5047 02:57:29,110 --> 02:57:25,279 bodies 5048 02:57:31,510 --> 02:57:29,120 um which means that you um 5049 02:57:32,790 --> 02:57:31,520 you you ask well where do where do we 5050 02:57:35,910 --> 02:57:32,800 fit and we 5051 02:57:37,870 --> 02:57:35,920 being um biotic systems that 5052 02:57:39,429 --> 02:57:37,880 show a particular kind of 5053 02:57:40,630 --> 02:57:39,439 self-organization that we would 5054 02:57:43,990 --> 02:57:40,640 associate with 5055 02:57:46,309 --> 02:57:44,000 um with life um and 5056 02:57:47,830 --> 02:57:46,319 it's in that it's in that intermediate 5057 02:57:51,030 --> 02:57:47,840 zone where 5058 02:57:54,630 --> 02:57:51,040 both the um the you know 5059 02:57:56,469 --> 02:57:54,640 the random fluctuations and um 5060 02:57:58,389 --> 02:57:56,479 what underwrites classical mechanics 5061 02:58:01,590 --> 02:57:58,399 which is this solenoidal 5062 02:58:02,150 --> 02:58:01,600 um circular motion that doesn't actually 5063 02:58:05,110 --> 02:58:02,160 change 5064 02:58:06,389 --> 02:58:05,120 surprisal or the marginal likelihood 5065 02:58:08,870 --> 02:58:06,399 that's where we live 5066 02:58:10,870 --> 02:58:08,880 so we know it's not at the quantum level 5067 02:58:13,830 --> 02:58:10,880 so we know that sentient behavior 5068 02:58:15,590 --> 02:58:13,840 and by implication sentience um cannot 5069 02:58:17,830 --> 02:58:15,600 be found at the quantum level 5070 02:58:19,830 --> 02:58:17,840 in the same sense it cannot be found in 5071 02:58:21,429 --> 02:58:19,840 the motion of the heavenly bodies 5072 02:58:22,550 --> 02:58:21,439 simply because they're too cool they 5073 02:58:23,750 --> 02:58:22,560 don't have the right kind of eye 5074 02:58:26,070 --> 02:58:23,760 tingency they're right 5075 02:58:26,950 --> 02:58:26,080 um if you like an adaptation the 5076 02:58:31,510 --> 02:58:26,960 challenges 5077 02:58:32,070 --> 02:58:31,520 destroy their mark off blankets are 5078 02:58:39,510 --> 02:58:32,080 simply 5079 02:58:43,030 --> 02:58:41,910 there's effectively no interesting 5080 02:58:45,429 --> 02:58:43,040 itinerancy that 5081 02:58:46,230 --> 02:58:45,439 is that defines non-equilibrium steady 5082 02:58:48,630 --> 02:58:46,240 state 5083 02:58:50,790 --> 02:58:48,640 so if i was responding oh no i'm not but 5084 02:58:54,230 --> 02:58:50,800 if i was responding to 5085 02:58:56,389 --> 02:58:54,240 a physicist asking asking that question 5086 02:58:58,950 --> 02:58:56,399 what you what i would be saying would be 5087 02:59:02,230 --> 02:58:58,960 that if we consider life 5088 02:59:04,870 --> 02:59:02,240 to be um self-organization 5089 02:59:05,830 --> 02:59:04,880 to some form of non-equilibrium far from 5090 02:59:09,510 --> 02:59:05,840 equilibrium 5091 02:59:09,830 --> 02:59:09,520 uh non-organization then stipulatively i 5092 02:59:12,830 --> 02:59:09,840 am 5093 02:59:14,630 --> 02:59:12,840 saying that we have to account for this 5094 02:59:17,910 --> 02:59:14,640 non-dissipative there 5095 02:59:18,950 --> 02:59:17,920 these non dissipative dynamics that are 5096 02:59:21,429 --> 02:59:18,960 mathematically 5097 02:59:23,190 --> 02:59:21,439 the solenoidal part if they are dwarfed 5098 02:59:24,469 --> 02:59:23,200 by random fluctuations that you find in 5099 02:59:26,550 --> 02:59:24,479 quantum physics 5100 02:59:28,950 --> 02:59:26,560 then you know we're not talking about 5101 02:59:30,309 --> 02:59:28,960 anymore um non-equilibrium we're talking 5102 02:59:32,550 --> 02:59:30,319 about equilibria we're talking about 5103 02:59:35,750 --> 02:59:32,560 solutions to the scrolling wave equation 5104 02:59:38,550 --> 02:59:35,760 so you know i re in conclusion you know 5105 02:59:38,870 --> 02:59:38,560 quantum neurobiology is entertaining 5106 02:59:43,190 --> 02:59:38,880 it's 5107 02:59:46,550 --> 02:59:43,200 right place to 5108 02:59:49,910 --> 02:59:46,560 um to you know create 5109 02:59:52,389 --> 02:59:49,920 a uh mechanics of um 5110 02:59:53,830 --> 02:59:52,399 of sentient behavior and by that you 5111 02:59:55,910 --> 02:59:53,840 know i would guess that 5112 02:59:58,630 --> 02:59:55,920 that precludes it from being an apt 5113 03:00:00,389 --> 02:59:58,640 description of conscious artifacts 5114 03:00:01,990 --> 03:00:00,399 is one to understand the free energy 5115 03:00:03,990 --> 03:00:02,000 principle as giving 5116 03:00:06,150 --> 03:00:04,000 any indication as to what consciousness 5117 03:00:07,750 --> 03:00:06,160 is so for example the self-evidencing 5118 03:00:09,349 --> 03:00:07,760 is that consciousness or is it when it's 5119 03:00:10,230 --> 03:00:09,359 minimizing the free energy or is it the 5120 03:00:12,630 --> 03:00:10,240 fact that it 5121 03:00:13,910 --> 03:00:12,640 has a markov blanket because when i was 5122 03:00:15,990 --> 03:00:13,920 looking at the nodes 5123 03:00:17,030 --> 03:00:16,000 any point you can define a markov 5124 03:00:18,710 --> 03:00:17,040 blanket too so it doesn't 5125 03:00:20,150 --> 03:00:18,720 seem like the fact that there exists a 5126 03:00:22,469 --> 03:00:20,160 markov blanket means it's conscious 5127 03:00:23,830 --> 03:00:22,479 so what are the conclusions one is to 5128 03:00:25,349 --> 03:00:23,840 take from reading your free energy 5129 03:00:27,910 --> 03:00:25,359 principle 5130 03:00:28,550 --> 03:00:27,920 that someone can draw for consciousness 5131 03:00:34,389 --> 03:00:28,560 yeah 5132 03:00:36,150 --> 03:00:34,399 i i mean this is again an excellent 5133 03:00:39,030 --> 03:00:36,160 question because it's one being posed 5134 03:00:40,630 --> 03:00:39,040 um around the world as we speak you know 5135 03:00:42,630 --> 03:00:40,640 so 5136 03:00:44,309 --> 03:00:42,640 people like the uh john templeton 5137 03:00:45,990 --> 03:00:44,319 foundation are sort of earnestly looking 5138 03:00:48,630 --> 03:00:46,000 at ways to sort of 5139 03:00:50,389 --> 03:00:48,640 um put up for example the free energy 5140 03:00:51,110 --> 03:00:50,399 principle against integrated information 5141 03:00:54,230 --> 03:00:51,120 theory as 5142 03:00:55,750 --> 03:00:54,240 formalism that might speak to um speak 5143 03:00:59,269 --> 03:00:55,760 to consciousness research 5144 03:01:01,910 --> 03:00:59,279 so it's a it's a great question um 5145 03:01:02,550 --> 03:01:01,920 the normal answer from people in my 5146 03:01:06,070 --> 03:01:02,560 world 5147 03:01:08,550 --> 03:01:06,080 um would start off by saying that 5148 03:01:10,150 --> 03:01:08,560 consciousness is probably a vague notion 5149 03:01:11,429 --> 03:01:10,160 and i mean vague in a philosophical 5150 03:01:14,469 --> 03:01:11,439 sense that you know 5151 03:01:18,790 --> 03:01:14,479 at what point does a collection of 5152 03:01:21,670 --> 03:01:18,800 sand um grains become a pile of sand 5153 03:01:22,550 --> 03:01:21,680 so it admits the possibility that a 5154 03:01:24,550 --> 03:01:22,560 thing 5155 03:01:26,309 --> 03:01:24,560 may not be conscious yes it certainly 5156 03:01:27,510 --> 03:01:26,319 would by definition have to have a 5157 03:01:30,150 --> 03:01:27,520 markov blanket 5158 03:01:31,030 --> 03:01:30,160 you know in our formalism um but that 5159 03:01:32,550 --> 03:01:31,040 does not mean 5160 03:01:34,630 --> 03:01:32,560 it is conscious it will be 5161 03:01:37,510 --> 03:01:34,640 self-evidencing in the sense of 5162 03:01:38,230 --> 03:01:37,520 having gradient flows that um try to 5163 03:01:40,469 --> 03:01:38,240 minimize 5164 03:01:41,830 --> 03:01:40,479 self-information but that's as far as it 5165 03:01:45,030 --> 03:01:41,840 goes so then you ask yourself 5166 03:01:48,150 --> 03:01:45,040 well what kind of systems first of all 5167 03:01:50,950 --> 03:01:48,160 look as if they are living and then 5168 03:01:51,269 --> 03:01:50,960 as we move through this vague landscape 5169 03:01:53,590 --> 03:01:51,279 or 5170 03:01:54,550 --> 03:01:53,600 vague dimension towards very 5171 03:01:57,830 --> 03:01:54,560 sophisticated 5172 03:01:59,429 --> 03:01:57,840 um uh you know particles like like 5173 03:02:02,870 --> 03:01:59,439 yourself and myself 5174 03:02:06,309 --> 03:02:02,880 and what would take us from living 5175 03:02:06,870 --> 03:02:06,319 to um systems that had a you know a 5176 03:02:10,070 --> 03:02:06,880 minimal 5177 03:02:11,349 --> 03:02:10,080 selfhood and then even further what 5178 03:02:12,309 --> 03:02:11,359 would take us to systems like 5179 03:02:14,150 --> 03:02:12,319 philosophers 5180 03:02:16,309 --> 03:02:14,160 so to puzzle over the fact that they 5181 03:02:19,510 --> 03:02:16,319 have minimal selfhood and 5182 03:02:20,710 --> 03:02:19,520 i think the answer lies really in the 5183 03:02:23,110 --> 03:02:20,720 generative model 5184 03:02:24,389 --> 03:02:23,120 so if you remember um we were talking 5185 03:02:26,710 --> 03:02:24,399 about a genitive model as being a 5186 03:02:28,070 --> 03:02:26,720 probabilistic specification of causes 5187 03:02:30,790 --> 03:02:28,080 and consequences 5188 03:02:32,870 --> 03:02:30,800 that underwrites the free energy or 5189 03:02:34,870 --> 03:02:32,880 specifically the free energy gradients 5190 03:02:36,950 --> 03:02:34,880 that provide an explanation for our 5191 03:02:37,990 --> 03:02:36,960 dynamics so it all boils down to the 5192 03:02:40,070 --> 03:02:38,000 genetic model 5193 03:02:41,190 --> 03:02:40,080 so first of all what would it mean to be 5194 03:02:45,110 --> 03:02:41,200 alive 5195 03:02:47,590 --> 03:02:45,120 um and you know we have discussed this 5196 03:02:49,110 --> 03:02:47,600 in terms of just moving to you know to 5197 03:02:51,349 --> 03:02:49,120 have an itinerancy 5198 03:02:54,309 --> 03:02:51,359 to actually act upon the world so you 5199 03:02:55,750 --> 03:02:54,319 you need to see a particle moving around 5200 03:02:57,590 --> 03:02:55,760 and it would look as if it was moving 5201 03:02:59,830 --> 03:02:57,600 around in the service 5202 03:03:00,790 --> 03:02:59,840 of um sampling evidence for its own 5203 03:03:03,830 --> 03:03:00,800 existence 5204 03:03:07,510 --> 03:03:03,840 uh and maintaining itself in um you know 5205 03:03:09,910 --> 03:03:07,520 in this in these characteristic ranges 5206 03:03:12,710 --> 03:03:09,920 showing some generalized homeostasis you 5207 03:03:16,230 --> 03:03:12,720 know of the sort you might expect um 5208 03:03:18,309 --> 03:03:16,240 a worm or a single celled 5209 03:03:20,389 --> 03:03:18,319 system um some kinds of behavior a 5210 03:03:23,429 --> 03:03:20,399 single cell system might show 5211 03:03:26,309 --> 03:03:23,439 is that does that have any sense of self 5212 03:03:26,950 --> 03:03:26,319 or any sense of consciousness probably 5213 03:03:29,910 --> 03:03:26,960 not 5214 03:03:31,110 --> 03:03:29,920 and then so you then take it up to say 5215 03:03:34,230 --> 03:03:31,120 insects and 5216 03:03:35,269 --> 03:03:34,240 and and you know and small mammals and 5217 03:03:38,630 --> 03:03:35,279 at some point 5218 03:03:41,269 --> 03:03:38,640 um in this vague continuum um 5219 03:03:42,870 --> 03:03:41,279 you you come across the next milestone 5220 03:03:45,590 --> 03:03:42,880 or marker on the way 5221 03:03:46,870 --> 03:03:45,600 which is the kind of generative moral 5222 03:03:50,790 --> 03:03:46,880 that would uh 5223 03:03:53,590 --> 03:03:50,800 explain the consequences of action so 5224 03:03:55,429 --> 03:03:53,600 put it very very simply though there are 5225 03:03:58,150 --> 03:03:55,439 some creatures that 5226 03:03:59,269 --> 03:03:58,160 are systems at least that will respond 5227 03:04:01,670 --> 03:03:59,279 reflexively 5228 03:04:02,710 --> 03:04:01,680 like say microbes and uh indeed 5229 03:04:04,710 --> 03:04:02,720 thermostats 5230 03:04:06,830 --> 03:04:04,720 that will respond in a way that seems to 5231 03:04:08,150 --> 03:04:06,840 keep themselves within a particular 5232 03:04:11,590 --> 03:04:08,160 range 5233 03:04:15,030 --> 03:04:11,600 but crucially they don't plan 5234 03:04:16,469 --> 03:04:15,040 so what would it mean in terms of 5235 03:04:18,710 --> 03:04:16,479 planning in a deliberate work 5236 03:04:20,950 --> 03:04:18,720 deliberative way basically selecting 5237 03:04:22,950 --> 03:04:20,960 among a number of ways forward a number 5238 03:04:25,990 --> 03:04:22,960 of courses of action 5239 03:04:28,550 --> 03:04:26,000 that will lead you to 5240 03:04:30,230 --> 03:04:28,560 reduce uncertainty minimize your free 5241 03:04:31,269 --> 03:04:30,240 energy or minimize your expected 5242 03:04:33,349 --> 03:04:31,279 surprise 5243 03:04:35,030 --> 03:04:33,359 as a consequence of that action well you 5244 03:04:38,070 --> 03:04:35,040 would require a genetic model 5245 03:04:40,630 --> 03:04:38,080 of what would happen if i did that now 5246 03:04:41,590 --> 03:04:40,640 because what would happen is in the 5247 03:04:43,269 --> 03:04:41,600 future 5248 03:04:45,110 --> 03:04:43,279 that's a very sophisticated genitive 5249 03:04:47,429 --> 03:04:45,120 model so now you're actually 5250 03:04:49,349 --> 03:04:47,439 equipping this charity model with a 5251 03:04:50,550 --> 03:04:49,359 temporal depth it can reach into the 5252 03:04:53,670 --> 03:04:50,560 future 5253 03:04:56,230 --> 03:04:53,680 and if a creature or a system is endowed 5254 03:04:58,389 --> 03:04:56,240 with a deep genitive model that 5255 03:05:00,309 --> 03:04:58,399 encompasses the consequences of action 5256 03:05:01,110 --> 03:05:00,319 it's now in a position to choose those 5257 03:05:03,349 --> 03:05:01,120 actions 5258 03:05:04,469 --> 03:05:03,359 that it thinks will either resolve 5259 03:05:06,630 --> 03:05:04,479 uncertainty or 5260 03:05:07,830 --> 03:05:06,640 supply the most evidence for its own 5261 03:05:10,790 --> 03:05:07,840 existence or 5262 03:05:11,910 --> 03:05:10,800 put more simply um invince the 5263 03:05:14,790 --> 03:05:11,920 characteristic 5264 03:05:16,070 --> 03:05:14,800 sensory states that define it and define 5265 03:05:19,429 --> 03:05:16,080 uh what it is 5266 03:05:22,630 --> 03:05:19,439 um so then we're moving on now to 5267 03:05:22,950 --> 03:05:22,640 creatures that plan um and if creatures 5268 03:05:25,910 --> 03:05:22,960 that 5269 03:05:26,950 --> 03:05:25,920 plan and now have an extra bit to their 5270 03:05:29,670 --> 03:05:26,960 generative models 5271 03:05:31,670 --> 03:05:29,680 which recognize that they are planning 5272 03:05:34,469 --> 03:05:31,680 that have this hypothesis that 5273 03:05:35,670 --> 03:05:34,479 hang on um it may be the simplest 5274 03:05:38,870 --> 03:05:35,680 explanation 5275 03:05:43,670 --> 03:05:38,880 for all these multimodal 5276 03:05:47,190 --> 03:05:43,680 sensations is that i am a thing 5277 03:05:49,590 --> 03:05:47,200 and that i it is me that is um 5278 03:05:50,870 --> 03:05:49,600 prosecuting these reflexes or moving or 5279 03:05:52,870 --> 03:05:50,880 it is me that is looking 5280 03:05:54,469 --> 03:05:52,880 over there and now you've got a very 5281 03:05:55,670 --> 03:05:54,479 sophisticated generative model where you 5282 03:05:59,269 --> 03:05:55,680 can certainly 5283 03:06:01,269 --> 03:05:59,279 um imagine that there is a minimal 5284 03:06:02,710 --> 03:06:01,279 representation of self like self 5285 03:06:05,750 --> 03:06:02,720 modeling 5286 03:06:06,309 --> 03:06:05,760 so now we're moving closer to um the 5287 03:06:09,429 --> 03:06:06,319 notion 5288 03:06:10,870 --> 03:06:09,439 of uh conscious artifacts would they be 5289 03:06:12,389 --> 03:06:10,880 fully conscious would they 5290 03:06:14,630 --> 03:06:12,399 would they have qualitative experiences 5291 03:06:17,030 --> 03:06:14,640 would they have qualia um 5292 03:06:17,830 --> 03:06:17,040 and then the next argument is what would 5293 03:06:20,469 --> 03:06:17,840 license 5294 03:06:21,429 --> 03:06:20,479 um qualitative experience you know see 5295 03:06:24,469 --> 03:06:21,439 you know 5296 03:06:27,910 --> 03:06:24,479 what it would be like to see um red 5297 03:06:28,950 --> 03:06:27,920 or any other attribute of the censorium 5298 03:06:31,750 --> 03:06:28,960 that usually 5299 03:06:33,429 --> 03:06:31,760 the argument then is well that's um that 5300 03:06:36,230 --> 03:06:33,439 would require 5301 03:06:37,190 --> 03:06:36,240 the kind of genetic model that was able 5302 03:06:40,950 --> 03:06:37,200 to 5303 03:06:44,230 --> 03:06:40,960 essentially infer on its own inference 5304 03:06:47,990 --> 03:06:44,240 that would be able to 5305 03:06:51,190 --> 03:06:48,000 enact a kind of mental or covert action 5306 03:06:53,110 --> 03:06:51,200 in order to select in 5307 03:06:54,870 --> 03:06:53,120 the model itself in the message passing 5308 03:06:58,309 --> 03:06:54,880 in the brain for example 5309 03:06:59,990 --> 03:06:58,319 be able to select certain um sources of 5310 03:07:01,910 --> 03:07:00,000 information in the service of this 5311 03:07:04,950 --> 03:07:01,920 hierarchical self-evidence where 5312 03:07:06,309 --> 03:07:04,960 from the hierarchy like layers of of an 5313 03:07:06,870 --> 03:07:06,319 onion and the deeper you get into the 5314 03:07:09,030 --> 03:07:06,880 onion 5315 03:07:10,230 --> 03:07:09,040 the higher you are in this hierarchy 5316 03:07:12,070 --> 03:07:10,240 with the you know 5317 03:07:13,349 --> 03:07:12,080 recurrent message passing between each 5318 03:07:15,830 --> 03:07:13,359 of the layers but 5319 03:07:16,870 --> 03:07:15,840 if the if the deeper the core of the 5320 03:07:18,950 --> 03:07:16,880 onion 5321 03:07:20,150 --> 03:07:18,960 was now able to act upon the 5322 03:07:22,830 --> 03:07:20,160 intermediate 5323 03:07:24,870 --> 03:07:22,840 layers or levels of this hierarchical 5324 03:07:27,590 --> 03:07:24,880 construct 5325 03:07:29,750 --> 03:07:27,600 then you might now suppose that this is 5326 03:07:33,110 --> 03:07:29,760 a kind of mental action 5327 03:07:33,590 --> 03:07:33,120 that licenses you to say now this is an 5328 03:07:38,230 --> 03:07:33,600 agent 5329 03:07:40,790 --> 03:07:38,240 acting um 5330 03:07:42,790 --> 03:07:40,800 psychologically this would be 5331 03:07:46,630 --> 03:07:42,800 effectively attention 5332 03:07:49,990 --> 03:07:46,640 so if you can plan what to attend to 5333 03:07:53,670 --> 03:07:50,000 or generate 5334 03:07:56,389 --> 03:07:53,680 attentional selection of the 5335 03:07:57,830 --> 03:07:56,399 um the way that you go and secure 5336 03:08:01,269 --> 03:07:57,840 evidence from your world 5337 03:08:04,309 --> 03:08:01,279 then you might now start to develop 5338 03:08:07,190 --> 03:08:04,319 um a theory of what it is like to 5339 03:08:08,790 --> 03:08:07,200 actively perceive something um you know 5340 03:08:10,790 --> 03:08:08,800 i could go on at length and 5341 03:08:12,790 --> 03:08:10,800 probably not very usefully in terms of 5342 03:08:15,990 --> 03:08:12,800 how you might cast that in terms 5343 03:08:18,309 --> 03:08:16,000 of phenomenal transparency and opacity 5344 03:08:19,910 --> 03:08:18,319 in brief what was saying is that there 5345 03:08:21,510 --> 03:08:19,920 are certain generative models there are 5346 03:08:25,269 --> 03:08:21,520 certain creatures 5347 03:08:29,110 --> 03:08:25,279 that can um render their 5348 03:08:32,150 --> 03:08:29,120 percepts experienced by rendering them 5349 03:08:35,750 --> 03:08:32,160 opaque by acting upon them by having 5350 03:08:37,590 --> 03:08:35,760 this capacity of attentional selection 5351 03:08:39,510 --> 03:08:37,600 so now you've got to some a very 5352 03:08:41,830 --> 03:08:39,520 sophisticated generative model 5353 03:08:42,950 --> 03:08:41,840 that not only has temporal depth that 5354 03:08:46,150 --> 03:08:42,960 enables the 5355 03:08:48,550 --> 03:08:46,160 agent to plan it's also truly an 5356 03:08:49,590 --> 03:08:48,560 agent that may be self-aware or at least 5357 03:08:53,110 --> 03:08:49,600 aware of what it is 5358 03:08:54,469 --> 03:08:53,120 um uh it is perceiving because it can 5359 03:08:57,590 --> 03:08:54,479 now act upon 5360 03:08:59,030 --> 03:08:57,600 um the the the perception the perceptual 5361 03:09:00,550 --> 03:08:59,040 inference that's implicit in the 5362 03:09:01,830 --> 03:09:00,560 self-evidencing 5363 03:09:03,990 --> 03:09:01,840 but we still haven't got to 5364 03:09:07,110 --> 03:09:04,000 self-awareness here so 5365 03:09:10,389 --> 03:09:07,120 these things might be apt to describe um 5366 03:09:11,990 --> 03:09:10,399 um say mice um 5367 03:09:13,510 --> 03:09:12,000 but we don't know whether mice are 5368 03:09:16,230 --> 03:09:13,520 self-aware they could 5369 03:09:17,670 --> 03:09:16,240 you know probably they can attend to 5370 03:09:20,550 --> 03:09:17,680 this or that and then 5371 03:09:21,269 --> 03:09:20,560 you know under this if you like spectrum 5372 03:09:28,070 --> 03:09:21,279 of 5373 03:09:29,190 --> 03:09:28,080 um you know they could be said to be 5374 03:09:31,830 --> 03:09:29,200 conscious in the sense 5375 03:09:33,190 --> 03:09:31,840 that they are sentient and have 5376 03:09:35,429 --> 03:09:33,200 qualitative experiences 5377 03:09:37,429 --> 03:09:35,439 but are they self-aware and if you want 5378 03:09:38,630 --> 03:09:37,439 to be self-aware you've now got to by 5379 03:09:41,030 --> 03:09:38,640 definition have 5380 03:09:42,630 --> 03:09:41,040 um part of your genetic model literally 5381 03:09:45,190 --> 03:09:42,640 part of your brain 5382 03:09:45,670 --> 03:09:45,200 that stands in and represents selfhood 5383 03:09:47,590 --> 03:09:45,680 so 5384 03:09:48,710 --> 03:09:47,600 just then we come back to this notion 5385 03:09:51,910 --> 03:09:48,720 that your 5386 03:09:55,590 --> 03:09:51,920 highest forms of um of 5387 03:09:59,590 --> 03:09:55,600 life on earth would would probably 5388 03:10:03,190 --> 03:09:59,600 have realized and learned 5389 03:10:06,150 --> 03:10:03,200 and infer that they are entities 5390 03:10:07,510 --> 03:10:06,160 they are agents and that becomes me and 5391 03:10:09,990 --> 03:10:07,520 it's me that's doing this 5392 03:10:10,950 --> 03:10:10,000 overt action and this covert action this 5393 03:10:15,030 --> 03:10:10,960 attentional 5394 03:10:17,349 --> 03:10:15,040 selection and then the final step would 5395 03:10:19,349 --> 03:10:17,359 be to go from this highest form of life 5396 03:10:20,950 --> 03:10:19,359 to become a philosopher when you start 5397 03:10:23,830 --> 03:10:20,960 to have mental models 5398 03:10:25,349 --> 03:10:23,840 of how it is that some people are 5399 03:10:27,190 --> 03:10:25,359 self-aware 5400 03:10:28,950 --> 03:10:27,200 and someone added for an item in terms 5401 03:10:29,910 --> 03:10:28,960 of the numbers is there an ed infinitum 5402 03:10:32,309 --> 03:10:29,920 what's the next step 5403 03:10:33,830 --> 03:10:32,319 after philosophy yeah as soon as i said 5404 03:10:37,110 --> 03:10:33,840 that i realized that i was stupid and 5405 03:10:39,269 --> 03:10:37,120 you'd stop me yeah no it's not okay 5406 03:10:40,870 --> 03:10:39,279 i think i think probably we've probably 5407 03:10:43,910 --> 03:10:40,880 got as far as we can 5408 03:10:45,190 --> 03:10:43,920 in terms of levels of recursion and i 5409 03:10:47,990 --> 03:10:45,200 say that because 5410 03:10:49,110 --> 03:10:48,000 there's a lovely um notion which i'm 5411 03:10:51,110 --> 03:10:49,120 sure you're aware of 5412 03:10:52,389 --> 03:10:51,120 this is a notion of the meta hard 5413 03:10:54,790 --> 03:10:52,399 problem um 5414 03:10:56,150 --> 03:10:54,800 no i never heard of that i should know 5415 03:10:57,830 --> 03:10:56,160 you'll love this 5416 03:10:59,190 --> 03:10:57,840 i i think it's something that was 5417 03:11:01,190 --> 03:10:59,200 introduced um 5418 03:11:03,269 --> 03:11:01,200 just in a presentation or taught by andy 5419 03:11:06,229 --> 03:11:03,279 clark in about 2001 5420 03:11:06,870 --> 03:11:06,239 and then seriously um taken up by david 5421 03:11:09,429 --> 03:11:06,880 chalmers 5422 03:11:11,269 --> 03:11:09,439 uh you know about two to three years ago 5423 03:11:13,750 --> 03:11:11,279 in 2018 5424 03:11:14,389 --> 03:11:13,760 so this is this is not the hard problem 5425 03:11:18,389 --> 03:11:14,399 of 5426 03:11:21,590 --> 03:11:18,399 um finding an explanation 5427 03:11:22,870 --> 03:11:21,600 for sentience uh you know what is it 5428 03:11:26,229 --> 03:11:22,880 like to perceive 5429 03:11:28,950 --> 03:11:26,239 red um it's 5430 03:11:30,790 --> 03:11:28,960 more why do we find why do we find 5431 03:11:32,790 --> 03:11:30,800 ourselves puzzling over it why do we 5432 03:11:35,269 --> 03:11:32,800 think it's such a it's interesting 5433 03:11:36,870 --> 03:11:35,279 yeah so this is not the hard problem but 5434 03:11:37,750 --> 03:11:36,880 what sits next to the heart problem 5435 03:11:40,550 --> 03:11:37,760 which is 5436 03:11:42,790 --> 03:11:40,560 why is it that we find it so perplexing 5437 03:11:44,790 --> 03:11:42,800 and difficult to explain 5438 03:11:46,389 --> 03:11:44,800 why is the heart problem a problem for 5439 03:11:49,590 --> 03:11:46,399 us um 5440 03:11:51,590 --> 03:11:49,600 and um you know 5441 03:11:52,950 --> 03:11:51,600 that that's you know to my mind it's 5442 03:11:53,830 --> 03:11:52,960 it's an extra level that you were 5443 03:11:56,150 --> 03:11:53,840 talking about so 5444 03:11:57,510 --> 03:11:56,160 you know now now we're asking we're 5445 03:11:58,550 --> 03:11:57,520 trying to explain the emergence of 5446 03:12:01,830 --> 03:11:58,560 philosophers 5447 03:12:04,389 --> 03:12:01,840 so without them to the next level 5448 03:12:05,269 --> 03:12:04,399 and it's a very very interesting problem 5449 03:12:12,550 --> 03:12:05,279 um 5450 03:12:13,110 --> 03:12:12,560 you know if i am puzzled about the fact 5451 03:12:17,590 --> 03:12:13,120 that i 5452 03:12:19,190 --> 03:12:17,600 tells you immediately that your 5453 03:12:22,389 --> 03:12:19,200 generative model 5454 03:12:24,710 --> 03:12:22,399 has to have a model of a counter factual 5455 03:12:26,710 --> 03:12:24,720 where i can see red but not experience 5456 03:12:29,030 --> 03:12:26,720 it now that's quite remarkable 5457 03:12:30,550 --> 03:12:29,040 yeah to actually have that kind of 5458 03:12:31,750 --> 03:12:30,560 genitive model where you can imagine 5459 03:12:34,229 --> 03:12:31,760 yourself 5460 03:12:36,070 --> 03:12:34,239 you're in a structured in a very very 5461 03:12:39,590 --> 03:12:36,080 different way 5462 03:12:41,670 --> 03:12:39,600 so i use the word counterfactual there 5463 03:12:43,110 --> 03:12:41,680 so deliberately because you know it may 5464 03:12:47,830 --> 03:12:43,120 be just because we 5465 03:12:50,150 --> 03:12:47,840 are systems artifacts sentient artifacts 5466 03:12:51,910 --> 03:12:50,160 that have these very very deep genitive 5467 03:12:53,990 --> 03:12:51,920 models that entertain 5468 03:12:56,150 --> 03:12:54,000 counterfactuals and neil seth calls his 5469 03:13:00,150 --> 03:12:56,160 counterfactual depth 5470 03:13:01,990 --> 03:13:00,160 now allows us oh i spoke to neil seth 5471 03:13:03,910 --> 03:13:02,000 for this program he's a great guy 5472 03:13:05,429 --> 03:13:03,920 well i i hope he mentioned 5473 03:13:06,950 --> 03:13:05,439 counterfactual depth and he'd if he 5474 03:13:08,550 --> 03:13:06,960 doesn't he'll have to get him back and 5475 03:13:10,710 --> 03:13:08,560 yeah yeah no i don't think he did or 5476 03:13:13,750 --> 03:13:10,720 maybe i slipped up and don't remember 5477 03:13:15,910 --> 03:13:13,760 okay sorry yeah so the you know 5478 03:13:17,590 --> 03:13:15,920 this notion of counterfactual depth you 5479 03:13:20,070 --> 03:13:17,600 know i think is is very important 5480 03:13:20,710 --> 03:13:20,080 i mean it's absolutely requisite for 5481 03:13:24,630 --> 03:13:20,720 planning 5482 03:13:26,070 --> 03:13:24,640 choosing the right course of action 5483 03:13:27,990 --> 03:13:26,080 which means you've got a series of 5484 03:13:30,630 --> 03:13:28,000 options all of which have these counter 5485 03:13:32,229 --> 03:13:30,640 factual outcomes um but of course if 5486 03:13:34,630 --> 03:13:32,239 you've given that model 5487 03:13:35,830 --> 03:13:34,640 you're given that kind of model you're 5488 03:13:38,870 --> 03:13:35,840 now in a position 5489 03:13:40,070 --> 03:13:38,880 to hypothesize counter factuals that 5490 03:13:43,190 --> 03:13:40,080 could never occur 5491 03:13:46,469 --> 03:13:43,200 such as seeing red without seeing red uh 5492 03:13:48,550 --> 03:13:46,479 such as um you know seeing but looking 5493 03:13:50,309 --> 03:13:48,560 but not seeing for example such as the 5494 03:13:52,150 --> 03:13:50,319 the other thought experiments that 5495 03:13:53,910 --> 03:13:52,160 philosophers like like you know uh 5496 03:13:57,190 --> 03:13:53,920 philosophical zombies 5497 03:14:00,309 --> 03:13:57,200 um yeah the very fact that there is 5498 03:14:03,030 --> 03:14:00,319 this meme of a philosophical zombie 5499 03:14:04,070 --> 03:14:03,040 tells you immediately that we are in 5500 03:14:06,790 --> 03:14:04,080 discourse 5501 03:14:08,229 --> 03:14:06,800 with creatures namely philosophers that 5502 03:14:11,670 --> 03:14:08,239 have the capacity 5503 03:14:14,309 --> 03:14:11,680 to um um represent 5504 03:14:16,550 --> 03:14:14,319 in their genitive models impossible 5505 03:14:18,950 --> 03:14:16,560 scenarios and counterfactuals 5506 03:14:20,070 --> 03:14:18,960 of the kind that you would have to uh 5507 03:14:23,349 --> 03:14:20,080 bring to the table 5508 03:14:26,309 --> 03:14:23,359 to you know to to conceive of a 5509 03:14:28,150 --> 03:14:26,319 of a philosophical zombie so just 5510 03:14:29,910 --> 03:14:28,160 perhaps even put even more simply the 5511 03:14:31,510 --> 03:14:29,920 fact that people can do these kinds of 5512 03:14:32,070 --> 03:14:31,520 thought experiments tells you a lot 5513 03:14:33,750 --> 03:14:32,080 about 5514 03:14:35,750 --> 03:14:33,760 the kinds of genetic models they use to 5515 03:14:37,510 --> 03:14:35,760 explain their world 5516 03:14:40,229 --> 03:14:37,520 and that is possibly a sufficient 5517 03:14:43,349 --> 03:14:40,239 explanation for the meta hard problem 5518 03:14:45,190 --> 03:14:43,359 uh just because we can 5519 03:14:46,469 --> 03:14:45,200 uh-huh okay i'm going to need to think 5520 03:14:47,510 --> 03:14:46,479 about that there's this lady named 5521 03:14:49,030 --> 03:14:47,520 annika harris 5522 03:14:50,550 --> 03:14:49,040 who's sam harris's wife and she has a 5523 03:14:52,070 --> 03:14:50,560 book on consciousness i believe it's 5524 03:14:54,550 --> 03:14:52,080 just called consciousness 5525 03:14:55,349 --> 03:14:54,560 and no offense to annika harris but the 5526 03:14:57,190 --> 03:14:55,359 book was 5527 03:14:58,870 --> 03:14:57,200 the book the best part of the book to me 5528 03:15:01,670 --> 03:14:58,880 was when she was talking about 5529 03:15:02,790 --> 03:15:01,680 philosophical zombies 5530 03:15:04,870 --> 03:15:02,800 that is for the people who aren't 5531 03:15:06,870 --> 03:15:04,880 listening how 5532 03:15:07,910 --> 03:15:06,880 can there be robots that look like us 5533 03:15:10,469 --> 03:15:07,920 that aren't conscious 5534 03:15:11,750 --> 03:15:10,479 and it produces an equivalent world and 5535 03:15:15,269 --> 03:15:11,760 she said 5536 03:15:15,830 --> 03:15:15,279 is that the fact that we're talking 5537 03:15:17,349 --> 03:15:15,840 about 5538 03:15:19,510 --> 03:15:17,359 consciousness implies that we're 5539 03:15:21,750 --> 03:15:19,520 conscious is because in an equivalent 5540 03:15:23,910 --> 03:15:21,760 zombie-like world 5541 03:15:24,790 --> 03:15:23,920 it's hard to imagine why they would come 5542 03:15:26,469 --> 03:15:24,800 up with that question 5543 03:15:29,190 --> 03:15:26,479 so that's what separates us from them 5544 03:15:33,269 --> 03:15:31,429 that sounds exactly and that that sounds 5545 03:15:34,710 --> 03:15:33,279 exactly like how andy clark would phrase 5546 03:15:36,710 --> 03:15:34,720 it you know the big thing is 5547 03:15:38,229 --> 03:15:36,720 why are we so puzzled about 5548 03:15:41,349 --> 03:15:38,239 consciousness and sentience 5549 03:15:42,950 --> 03:15:41,359 so that sounds very very close to to 5550 03:15:45,110 --> 03:15:42,960 you know the core question that 5551 03:15:46,309 --> 03:15:45,120 underwrites the the meta heart problem 5552 03:15:49,110 --> 03:15:46,319 or the meta problem 5553 03:15:50,469 --> 03:15:49,120 yeah anna lukomsky asks she says that's 5554 03:15:50,790 --> 03:15:50,479 lovely to hear when i told her that i 5555 03:15:52,389 --> 03:15:50,800 was 5556 03:15:54,150 --> 03:15:52,399 speaking to you she's fantastic news 5557 03:15:56,389 --> 03:15:54,160 about carl fristen i'm 5558 03:15:57,349 --> 03:15:56,399 curious to know if he's an idealist or a 5559 03:15:59,269 --> 03:15:57,359 physicalist 5560 03:16:01,269 --> 03:15:59,279 now i'm biased towards idealism i'm 5561 03:16:03,190 --> 03:16:01,279 speaking in terms of her 5562 03:16:05,429 --> 03:16:03,200 she's a psychiatrist by the way or a 5563 03:16:07,110 --> 03:16:05,439 psychologist and she says 5564 03:16:09,510 --> 03:16:07,120 well first of all are you an idealist or 5565 03:16:12,229 --> 03:16:09,520 a physicalist 5566 03:16:13,510 --> 03:16:12,239 um i i'm very happy to bat for both 5567 03:16:16,550 --> 03:16:13,520 sides depending on 5568 03:16:18,070 --> 03:16:16,560 who who i'm talking to so okay so you're 5569 03:16:21,190 --> 03:16:18,080 uncommitted right now 5570 03:16:22,150 --> 03:16:21,200 um no no i mean i i'm happy to commit to 5571 03:16:24,070 --> 03:16:22,160 either so 5572 03:16:26,229 --> 03:16:24,080 you're i see this through the lens of 5573 03:16:29,590 --> 03:16:26,239 the people i know in philosophy so 5574 03:16:32,790 --> 03:16:29,600 on the one hand my friend andy clark um 5575 03:16:35,429 --> 03:16:32,800 would would be um 5576 03:16:36,150 --> 03:16:35,439 somebody who believes you know certainly 5577 03:16:39,190 --> 03:16:36,160 would not 5578 03:16:42,870 --> 03:16:39,200 um adopt a a radical 5579 03:16:46,389 --> 03:16:45,030 would celebrate the markov blanket that 5580 03:16:48,150 --> 03:16:46,399 separates you 5581 03:16:50,229 --> 03:16:48,160 from the external world and therefore 5582 03:16:53,750 --> 03:16:50,239 the external world can never be known 5583 03:16:55,349 --> 03:16:53,760 um it's only ever accessed vicariously 5584 03:16:58,070 --> 03:16:55,359 by the markov blanket 5585 03:17:00,070 --> 03:16:58,080 and he might he might then um take a 5586 03:17:02,790 --> 03:17:00,080 more skeptical uh position 5587 03:17:04,150 --> 03:17:02,800 um you know i think that the maths of 5588 03:17:07,190 --> 03:17:04,160 the free energy principle 5589 03:17:10,630 --> 03:17:07,200 um really forces you to to um 5590 03:17:12,950 --> 03:17:10,640 um uh two back for both sides on the one 5591 03:17:17,190 --> 03:17:12,960 hand it is absolutely true 5592 03:17:20,550 --> 03:17:17,200 that our making sense of the world 5593 03:17:24,229 --> 03:17:20,560 through the sensory veil 5594 03:17:27,190 --> 03:17:24,239 supplied by the markov blanket precludes 5595 03:17:27,990 --> 03:17:27,200 any anything out there that will be ever 5596 03:17:29,990 --> 03:17:28,000 known 5597 03:17:31,830 --> 03:17:30,000 um that is certainly true so it's only 5598 03:17:33,510 --> 03:17:31,840 consistent with brain and of that like 5599 03:17:35,830 --> 03:17:33,520 thought experiments there 5600 03:17:37,030 --> 03:17:35,840 there will be no way um that you could 5601 03:17:38,950 --> 03:17:37,040 verify or not 5602 03:17:40,790 --> 03:17:38,960 what's actually going on out there 5603 03:17:41,990 --> 03:17:40,800 everything is this sort of delusion or 5604 03:17:44,870 --> 03:17:42,000 hallucination 5605 03:17:46,309 --> 03:17:44,880 that is entrained and grounded by 5606 03:17:48,550 --> 03:17:46,319 sensory evidence but 5607 03:17:50,389 --> 03:17:48,560 you know you know you never know the 5608 03:17:52,309 --> 03:17:50,399 causes of that sensory evidence that's 5609 03:17:55,030 --> 03:17:52,319 the whole premise of imprints you know 5610 03:17:58,070 --> 03:17:55,040 active imprints encapsulating 5611 03:18:00,309 --> 03:17:58,080 or the um encapsulating 5612 03:18:01,990 --> 03:18:00,319 the take on self-organization as a 5613 03:18:03,590 --> 03:18:02,000 process of inference 5614 03:18:05,269 --> 03:18:03,600 so that's that that would be sort of you 5615 03:18:06,710 --> 03:18:05,279 know the you know one side of the 5616 03:18:09,269 --> 03:18:06,720 defense 5617 03:18:10,150 --> 03:18:09,279 the problem is that when you um if you 5618 03:18:12,790 --> 03:18:10,160 commit to that 5619 03:18:13,349 --> 03:18:12,800 it's very difficult to actually simulate 5620 03:18:16,150 --> 03:18:13,359 um 5621 03:18:17,510 --> 03:18:16,160 or engineer sentience because in order 5622 03:18:19,349 --> 03:18:17,520 to do that you've actually got to 5623 03:18:21,110 --> 03:18:19,359 generate the sensations 5624 03:18:22,710 --> 03:18:21,120 um the sensory states of the markov 5625 03:18:25,269 --> 03:18:22,720 blanket on uh 5626 03:18:27,110 --> 03:18:25,279 that the the agent can infer and of 5627 03:18:30,229 --> 03:18:27,120 course when i talk about 5628 03:18:32,389 --> 03:18:30,239 or refer to the good regulator theorem 5629 03:18:34,469 --> 03:18:32,399 um i'm implicitly assuming that there is 5630 03:18:36,710 --> 03:18:34,479 a world out there to be regulated 5631 03:18:38,309 --> 03:18:36,720 i am assuming that you know the quality 5632 03:18:42,070 --> 03:18:38,319 of a generative model 5633 03:18:44,469 --> 03:18:42,080 as measured by its free energy um 5634 03:18:45,990 --> 03:18:44,479 is in relation to what is being modeled 5635 03:18:49,269 --> 03:18:46,000 so i have to commit 5636 03:18:50,550 --> 03:18:49,279 to some realism uh in the sense that i'm 5637 03:18:52,150 --> 03:18:50,560 saying there is a model 5638 03:18:53,990 --> 03:18:52,160 so it's very difficult for me to answer 5639 03:18:56,469 --> 03:18:54,000 that because on the one hand 5640 03:18:58,229 --> 03:18:56,479 um is if it's a model of something then 5641 03:19:00,070 --> 03:18:58,239 the something must be real 5642 03:19:01,750 --> 03:19:00,080 on the other hand it's always the on the 5643 03:19:02,389 --> 03:19:01,760 process of inference under a particular 5644 03:19:03,910 --> 03:19:02,399 model 5645 03:19:05,510 --> 03:19:03,920 means i'll never know whether there's 5646 03:19:08,309 --> 03:19:05,520 anything real or not so 5647 03:19:09,429 --> 03:19:08,319 you know it it it sort of accommodates 5648 03:19:15,030 --> 03:19:09,439 both points of view 5649 03:19:18,950 --> 03:19:16,950 the psychological reason you're saying 5650 03:19:19,750 --> 03:19:18,960 sorry there's not a psychological reason 5651 03:19:22,710 --> 03:19:19,760 that you're saying 5652 03:19:23,030 --> 03:19:22,720 you're both a physicalist and a realist 5653 03:19:25,830 --> 03:19:23,040 or 5654 03:19:27,190 --> 03:19:25,840 neither it's it's not because you don't 5655 03:19:30,070 --> 03:19:27,200 want to offend anyone 5656 03:19:31,590 --> 03:19:30,080 it's actually because your your model 5657 03:19:33,110 --> 03:19:31,600 accounts for both 5658 03:19:34,710 --> 03:19:33,120 well one is like ontological the other 5659 03:19:36,870 --> 03:19:34,720 is epistemic so one is like we can't 5660 03:19:38,150 --> 03:19:36,880 have knowledge of it but the other one 5661 03:19:39,349 --> 03:19:38,160 but at the same time you're assuming 5662 03:19:40,469 --> 03:19:39,359 that there exists a world that's 5663 03:19:41,670 --> 03:19:40,479 independent 5664 03:19:44,150 --> 03:19:41,680 yes and that's a beautiful way of 5665 03:19:46,550 --> 03:19:44,160 putting it but but also i also don't 5666 03:19:47,910 --> 03:19:46,560 want to offend anybody as well but yes 5667 03:19:49,990 --> 03:19:47,920 you're a lovely chap you want to keep 5668 03:19:52,469 --> 03:19:50,000 your charming nature okay 5669 03:19:53,590 --> 03:19:52,479 so this person named matthew nahemi says 5670 03:19:57,190 --> 03:19:53,600 does 5671 03:19:58,830 --> 03:19:57,200 alfred korczymski 5672 03:20:00,710 --> 03:19:58,840 and what does he think about his 5673 03:20:02,229 --> 03:20:00,720 theories 5674 03:20:04,229 --> 03:20:02,239 that deserve a vague bell but you're 5675 03:20:05,349 --> 03:20:04,239 going to have to um tell me 5676 03:20:07,030 --> 03:20:05,359 then forget it because i actually don't 5677 03:20:08,150 --> 03:20:07,040 know this person and i have been told 5678 03:20:08,870 --> 03:20:08,160 that i need to learn more about this 5679 03:20:11,349 --> 03:20:08,880 person 5680 03:20:12,830 --> 03:20:11,359 dr jt velikovsky of the university of 5681 03:20:15,830 --> 03:20:12,840 newcastle from austra 5682 03:20:17,590 --> 03:20:15,840 australia who has published some work on 5683 03:20:18,150 --> 03:20:17,600 holland part-time theory structure of 5684 03:20:20,950 --> 03:20:18,160 the meme 5685 03:20:23,190 --> 03:20:20,960 some memes like richard dawkins memes he 5686 03:20:26,389 --> 03:20:23,200 asks 5687 03:20:30,070 --> 03:20:26,399 do you expect like david boehm suggested 5688 03:20:30,790 --> 03:20:30,080 that the scale size of entities in the 5689 03:20:34,389 --> 03:20:30,800 universe 5690 03:20:36,870 --> 03:20:34,399 eg matter energy go infinitely smaller 5691 03:20:37,910 --> 03:20:36,880 eg smaller beyond quarks and also 5692 03:20:42,469 --> 03:20:37,920 infinitely larger 5693 03:20:44,150 --> 03:20:42,479 eg to multiple universes um 5694 03:20:46,150 --> 03:20:44,160 yes i mean i think that would be that 5695 03:20:49,190 --> 03:20:46,160 would be a sort of mathematical take 5696 03:20:52,229 --> 03:20:49,200 um on um the application 5697 03:20:54,229 --> 03:20:52,239 if we wanted to do that of of the the 5698 03:20:56,070 --> 03:20:54,239 apparatus of the renormalization group 5699 03:20:58,710 --> 03:20:56,080 when trying to understand 5700 03:20:59,269 --> 03:20:58,720 um the separation of temporal scales 5701 03:21:01,510 --> 03:20:59,279 between 5702 03:21:03,110 --> 03:21:01,520 different levels of organization which 5703 03:21:05,110 --> 03:21:03,120 is an important part 5704 03:21:08,229 --> 03:21:05,120 of the free energy formalism when it 5705 03:21:09,910 --> 03:21:08,239 comes to thinking about 5706 03:21:12,309 --> 03:21:09,920 markov blankets and mark off blankets 5707 03:21:15,110 --> 03:21:12,319 say you know organs that comprise 5708 03:21:16,070 --> 03:21:15,120 cells where each cell comprises 5709 03:21:18,309 --> 03:21:16,080 organelles 5710 03:21:19,590 --> 03:21:18,319 that themselves comprise molecules that 5711 03:21:21,110 --> 03:21:19,600 themselves comprise out 5712 03:21:23,190 --> 03:21:21,120 and so on and so forth and then the 5713 03:21:24,469 --> 03:21:23,200 other way organs constituting phenotypes 5714 03:21:26,389 --> 03:21:24,479 phenotypes 5715 03:21:29,110 --> 03:21:26,399 cons constituting populations across 5716 03:21:30,870 --> 03:21:29,120 specifics constituting in groups and out 5717 03:21:33,590 --> 03:21:30,880 groups constituting species and 5718 03:21:34,710 --> 03:21:33,600 and so on right up to um sort of a 5719 03:21:38,070 --> 03:21:34,720 cosmological 5720 03:21:41,110 --> 03:21:38,080 scale so you know i think mathematically 5721 03:21:42,630 --> 03:21:41,120 um that that's a very comfortable 5722 03:21:45,750 --> 03:21:42,640 position to adopt 5723 03:21:48,269 --> 03:21:45,760 um so that you know there is no lower 5724 03:21:49,590 --> 03:21:48,279 upper bound on the application of the 5725 03:21:53,510 --> 03:21:49,600 renormalization 5726 03:21:54,550 --> 03:21:53,520 group when you move from one scale to 5727 03:21:57,110 --> 03:21:54,560 the next 5728 03:21:59,030 --> 03:21:57,120 um which you can do very gracefully when 5729 03:22:03,590 --> 03:21:59,040 it comes to 5730 03:22:06,150 --> 03:22:03,600 certainly modeling for example um 5731 03:22:09,190 --> 03:22:06,160 applying the free energy principle to 5732 03:22:12,389 --> 03:22:09,200 single cells in a network of neurons 5733 03:22:16,630 --> 03:22:12,399 and then core straining that to try 5734 03:22:20,389 --> 03:22:16,640 to model um you know parts of the brain 5735 03:22:22,790 --> 03:22:20,399 as self-evidencing through 5736 03:22:24,550 --> 03:22:22,800 you know physical motion through to 5737 03:22:25,269 --> 03:22:24,560 course training that and then trying to 5738 03:22:28,070 --> 03:22:25,279 model 5739 03:22:29,830 --> 03:22:28,080 um populations talking to each other or 5740 03:22:31,590 --> 03:22:29,840 interacting through them uh the markov 5741 03:22:34,550 --> 03:22:31,600 blankets that defines 5742 03:22:36,710 --> 03:22:34,560 an organization or a family or a set of 5743 03:22:39,830 --> 03:22:36,720 con specifics 5744 03:22:42,150 --> 03:22:39,840 defines it in relation to say the uh the 5745 03:22:43,349 --> 03:22:42,160 environment or the econish so these are 5746 03:22:48,309 --> 03:22:43,359 just examples 5747 03:22:50,469 --> 03:22:48,319 of um lifting exactly the same dynamics 5748 03:22:51,670 --> 03:22:50,479 the gradient flows uh that underwrite 5749 03:22:54,309 --> 03:22:51,680 the free energy principle 5750 03:22:54,870 --> 03:22:54,319 from one scale to the next and in so 5751 03:22:57,269 --> 03:22:54,880 doing 5752 03:22:58,790 --> 03:22:57,279 working out what the states are what the 5753 03:22:59,510 --> 03:22:58,800 you know when you say the states of 5754 03:23:01,269 --> 03:22:59,520 affairs 5755 03:23:03,110 --> 03:23:01,279 or the sensory states or the internal 5756 03:23:05,670 --> 03:23:03,120 states yeah what are they 5757 03:23:06,550 --> 03:23:05,680 and um when you sort of drill down on 5758 03:23:10,309 --> 03:23:06,560 that 5759 03:23:13,429 --> 03:23:10,319 what you can do is use the um the 5760 03:23:17,670 --> 03:23:13,439 renormalization group formalism um 5761 03:23:20,309 --> 03:23:17,680 to be moving from one scale to the next 5762 03:23:21,830 --> 03:23:20,319 you basically take um mixtures of 5763 03:23:24,229 --> 03:23:21,840 blanket states 5764 03:23:24,870 --> 03:23:24,239 uh and then those mixtures of blanket 5765 03:23:26,630 --> 03:23:24,880 states 5766 03:23:28,870 --> 03:23:26,640 technically the eigenfunctions of the 5767 03:23:30,550 --> 03:23:28,880 blanket states now become the states of 5768 03:23:31,830 --> 03:23:30,560 the next level and then 5769 03:23:33,670 --> 03:23:31,840 you look at the conditional dependencies 5770 03:23:35,349 --> 03:23:33,680 of the states the next level then you 5771 03:23:36,309 --> 03:23:35,359 find the markov blanket then you take 5772 03:23:38,389 --> 03:23:36,319 the eigen 5773 03:23:39,830 --> 03:23:38,399 functions of those states and then they 5774 03:23:42,469 --> 03:23:39,840 become states in the next level 5775 03:23:43,269 --> 03:23:42,479 at each level of course graining you get 5776 03:23:46,469 --> 03:23:43,279 bigger 5777 03:23:47,030 --> 03:23:46,479 and slower so before we were talking 5778 03:23:50,229 --> 03:23:47,040 about 5779 03:23:53,990 --> 03:23:50,239 sort of this from quantum to classical 5780 03:23:57,110 --> 03:23:54,000 um um that inherits simply from 5781 03:23:59,429 --> 03:23:57,120 this um successive course graining but 5782 03:24:02,870 --> 03:23:59,439 at each point exactly the same 5783 03:24:05,590 --> 03:24:02,880 free energy um um 5784 03:24:06,870 --> 03:24:05,600 for like lagrangian you know the way 5785 03:24:09,590 --> 03:24:06,880 that you would write down 5786 03:24:10,870 --> 03:24:09,600 the dynamics and you know on one region 5787 03:24:12,550 --> 03:24:10,880 the energetics 5788 03:24:14,070 --> 03:24:12,560 this functional forms are exactly 5789 03:24:17,830 --> 03:24:14,080 preserved you're just 5790 03:24:22,229 --> 03:24:17,840 swapping out sort of um your microscopic 5791 03:24:24,070 --> 03:24:22,239 states um for mixtures of microscopic 5792 03:24:25,510 --> 03:24:24,080 states in particular repeat the eigen 5793 03:24:27,269 --> 03:24:25,520 functions or mixtures 5794 03:24:29,110 --> 03:24:27,279 of blanket states to get to the next 5795 03:24:31,030 --> 03:24:29,120 level noting that 5796 03:24:33,110 --> 03:24:31,040 the black you're throwing away the 5797 03:24:34,070 --> 03:24:33,120 internal states remember the internal 5798 03:24:36,950 --> 03:24:34,080 states 5799 03:24:37,750 --> 03:24:36,960 um are independent of the external 5800 03:24:40,630 --> 03:24:37,760 states 5801 03:24:41,990 --> 03:24:40,640 given the markov blanket and vice versa 5802 03:24:43,830 --> 03:24:42,000 which means there's nothing in the 5803 03:24:45,030 --> 03:24:43,840 internal states or any particular 5804 03:24:48,630 --> 03:24:45,040 particle 5805 03:24:50,630 --> 03:24:48,640 that is not if you like um encoded 5806 03:24:51,990 --> 03:24:50,640 in the blanket states if you wanted to 5807 03:24:54,070 --> 03:24:52,000 move to the next level 5808 03:24:55,590 --> 03:24:54,080 so each level you're throwing away the 5809 03:24:58,630 --> 03:24:55,600 internal states 5810 03:25:00,150 --> 03:24:58,640 um that can have very fast dynamics and 5811 03:25:02,630 --> 03:25:00,160 you're picking out 5812 03:25:03,830 --> 03:25:02,640 the slower fluctuations of them on the 5813 03:25:06,229 --> 03:25:03,840 markov blanket 5814 03:25:08,150 --> 03:25:06,239 on the blanket states themselves so the 5815 03:25:11,030 --> 03:25:08,160 states at the next level up 5816 03:25:12,950 --> 03:25:11,040 now fluctuate much much more slowly and 5817 03:25:15,750 --> 03:25:12,960 they encompass 5818 03:25:16,389 --> 03:25:15,760 they have a larger spatial scale as well 5819 03:25:19,910 --> 03:25:16,399 so 5820 03:25:23,590 --> 03:25:19,920 um you know once one has that um 5821 03:25:25,670 --> 03:25:23,600 that that sort of um recursive um 5822 03:25:27,510 --> 03:25:25,680 you know not proof by induction but the 5823 03:25:28,630 --> 03:25:27,520 same spirit as a proof by induction 5824 03:25:32,229 --> 03:25:28,640 where you move from 5825 03:25:35,429 --> 03:25:32,239 from one level to the next level uh that 5826 03:25:37,670 --> 03:25:35,439 once one has that apparatus in play 5827 03:25:39,510 --> 03:25:37,680 there is no need to ask when does when 5828 03:25:40,229 --> 03:25:39,520 does the process stop or where did it 5829 03:25:42,790 --> 03:25:40,239 begin 5830 03:25:44,710 --> 03:25:42,800 um and in a sense you dissolve those 5831 03:25:46,550 --> 03:25:44,720 questions because you're only interested 5832 03:25:47,830 --> 03:25:46,560 in one particular scale and how it 5833 03:25:51,110 --> 03:25:47,840 relates to scale above 5834 03:25:54,229 --> 03:25:51,120 and the scale below i mean you can go um 5835 03:25:56,550 --> 03:25:54,239 if you're if you like um astronomy 5836 03:25:57,990 --> 03:25:56,560 uh or you know um you're interested in 5837 03:26:00,630 --> 03:25:58,000 the physics 5838 03:26:01,990 --> 03:26:00,640 of the cosmos then you know you'll be 5839 03:26:04,630 --> 03:26:02,000 going i'd say six 5840 03:26:06,070 --> 03:26:04,640 scales uh you know towards towards 5841 03:26:08,790 --> 03:26:06,080 classical mechanics 5842 03:26:09,269 --> 03:26:08,800 if you're interested in string theory 5843 03:26:11,670 --> 03:26:09,279 and 5844 03:26:13,510 --> 03:26:11,680 uh small particle accelerators then 5845 03:26:14,710 --> 03:26:13,520 you'd be going to say six scales down to 5846 03:26:17,429 --> 03:26:14,720 very very small things 5847 03:26:19,910 --> 03:26:17,439 you know towards the quantum level um 5848 03:26:21,830 --> 03:26:19,920 but we is six just a number 5849 03:26:23,429 --> 03:26:21,840 for an example or are you specifying 5850 03:26:26,229 --> 03:26:23,439 something in particular um 5851 03:26:27,349 --> 03:26:26,239 well yeah yeah it is a number i pulled 5852 03:26:29,349 --> 03:26:27,359 out of the hat but 5853 03:26:31,429 --> 03:26:29,359 but it's probably about that when one 5854 03:26:34,950 --> 03:26:31,439 looks at um 5855 03:26:38,389 --> 03:26:34,960 when one looks at 5856 03:26:40,790 --> 03:26:38,399 the time constants empirically 5857 03:26:42,389 --> 03:26:40,800 associated with any particular scale or 5858 03:26:43,190 --> 03:26:42,399 any set of markov blanks at different 5859 03:26:45,429 --> 03:26:43,200 scales 5860 03:26:46,710 --> 03:26:45,439 and then one goes to the next scale 5861 03:26:48,630 --> 03:26:46,720 using 5862 03:26:49,910 --> 03:26:48,640 you know this is not this is not um 5863 03:26:52,150 --> 03:26:49,920 magic 5864 03:26:54,070 --> 03:26:52,160 it has been applied for example to brain 5865 03:26:59,030 --> 03:26:54,080 imaging time series where you 5866 03:27:01,190 --> 03:26:59,040 you look at every um little cubic 5867 03:27:02,870 --> 03:27:01,200 patch of the brains see a few 5868 03:27:04,229 --> 03:27:02,880 millimeters in size 5869 03:27:06,070 --> 03:27:04,239 and then you say well that's the scale 5870 03:27:06,550 --> 03:27:06,080 i'm going to start with and i'll take 5871 03:27:14,309 --> 03:27:06,560 the 5872 03:27:16,150 --> 03:27:14,319 this little chunk of brain 5873 03:27:17,590 --> 03:27:16,160 and then i've got say thousands of 5874 03:27:19,269 --> 03:27:17,600 states and then i'll look at the 5875 03:27:20,790 --> 03:27:19,279 dependencies and i'll work out a markov 5876 03:27:22,710 --> 03:27:20,800 blanket and it could be 5877 03:27:25,750 --> 03:27:22,720 a markov blanket around a little chunk 5878 03:27:28,950 --> 03:27:25,760 of brain the size of your thumbnail 5879 03:27:29,830 --> 03:27:28,960 and then you can take the eigen 5880 03:27:32,309 --> 03:27:29,840 functions 5881 03:27:33,510 --> 03:27:32,319 of the markov blanket of that little 5882 03:27:36,070 --> 03:27:33,520 chunk of brain 5883 03:27:37,510 --> 03:27:36,080 um and then you put the chunks together 5884 03:27:39,190 --> 03:27:37,520 and you find the markov blanket at that 5885 03:27:40,229 --> 03:27:39,200 level and then you talk about lobes of 5886 03:27:41,990 --> 03:27:40,239 the brain 5887 03:27:43,349 --> 03:27:42,000 and then you talk about the entire brain 5888 03:27:44,309 --> 03:27:43,359 and then you think about well lots of 5889 03:27:46,309 --> 03:27:44,319 brains together 5890 03:27:47,750 --> 03:27:46,319 at a scientific conference there's so 5891 03:27:50,229 --> 03:27:47,760 many 5892 03:27:51,030 --> 03:27:50,239 whatever almost every four sentences 5893 03:27:54,710 --> 03:27:51,040 that you 5894 03:27:55,030 --> 03:27:54,720 speak three ideas occurred to me and i 5895 03:27:56,870 --> 03:27:55,040 just 5896 03:27:57,990 --> 03:27:56,880 want to explore them all so here's an 5897 03:27:59,429 --> 03:27:58,000 example we're not going to explore them 5898 03:28:01,030 --> 03:27:59,439 i'll just say them 5899 03:28:02,309 --> 03:28:01,040 when you mention that the internal 5900 03:28:03,990 --> 03:28:02,319 states are independent of the external 5901 03:28:05,429 --> 03:28:04,000 vice versa that means there's almost an 5902 03:28:06,070 --> 03:28:05,439 arbitrariness as to which one you call 5903 03:28:08,630 --> 03:28:06,080 internal 5904 03:28:10,389 --> 03:28:08,640 and which means that you can at least 5905 03:28:12,309 --> 03:28:10,399 i'm surmising i'm gonna 5906 03:28:14,070 --> 03:28:12,319 i'm pretty much asking but either way 5907 03:28:15,990 --> 03:28:14,080 then that means that you can 5908 03:28:17,910 --> 03:28:16,000 imagine the environment models you in a 5909 03:28:19,269 --> 03:28:17,920 sense and then i wondered 5910 03:28:20,950 --> 03:28:19,279 well what's the connection between that 5911 03:28:21,429 --> 03:28:20,960 and the holographic principle in string 5912 03:28:23,830 --> 03:28:21,439 theory 5913 03:28:26,150 --> 03:28:23,840 which says that at the boundary it 5914 03:28:28,150 --> 03:28:26,160 encodes the information 5915 03:28:29,830 --> 03:28:28,160 anyway okay that's just what occurs to 5916 03:28:31,830 --> 03:28:29,840 me and also multiple 5917 03:28:32,870 --> 03:28:31,840 dissociative personality disorder i also 5918 03:28:35,190 --> 03:28:32,880 want to know about that 5919 03:28:35,910 --> 03:28:35,200 but it's not about me joanna dong has a 5920 03:28:39,750 --> 03:28:35,920 question 5921 03:28:41,269 --> 03:28:39,760 do you explain the meaning of life using 5922 03:28:42,469 --> 03:28:41,279 the free energy principle that's the 5923 03:28:45,990 --> 03:28:42,479 easy question you can answer that in 5924 03:28:49,910 --> 03:28:48,309 um i've never been asked that before the 5925 03:28:51,670 --> 03:28:49,920 meaning of life 5926 03:28:53,910 --> 03:28:51,680 so no i just got to use my favorite 5927 03:28:56,309 --> 03:28:53,920 words tautology and deflation 5928 03:28:57,110 --> 03:28:56,319 um you know the meaning is in the 5929 03:29:03,590 --> 03:28:57,120 existence 5930 03:29:07,750 --> 03:29:03,600 the goals for um the 5931 03:29:10,790 --> 03:29:07,760 existential imperatives to keep yourself 5932 03:29:12,870 --> 03:29:10,800 in the in those existential domains so 5933 03:29:13,830 --> 03:29:12,880 it's just in the existence it's just the 5934 03:29:16,790 --> 03:29:13,840 shape 5935 03:29:18,309 --> 03:29:16,800 of things that exist that define their 5936 03:29:21,429 --> 03:29:18,319 own meaning 5937 03:29:23,750 --> 03:29:21,439 and you know in a sense um you could 5938 03:29:24,550 --> 03:29:23,760 look at self-evidencing as finding 5939 03:29:27,830 --> 03:29:24,560 meaning 5940 03:29:32,070 --> 03:29:27,840 uh for your life or your 5941 03:29:35,670 --> 03:29:32,080 fi finding um or understanding 5942 03:29:38,870 --> 03:29:35,680 the um 5943 03:29:41,910 --> 03:29:38,880 the model for which you're trying 5944 03:29:44,550 --> 03:29:41,920 to accrue evidence um 5945 03:29:45,590 --> 03:29:44,560 and what that basically means is if 5946 03:29:48,710 --> 03:29:45,600 you're reading that 5947 03:29:49,750 --> 03:29:48,720 as a um as a psychiatrist or a 5948 03:29:51,590 --> 03:29:49,760 philosopher 5949 03:29:52,790 --> 03:29:51,600 you're basically trying to understand 5950 03:29:54,790 --> 03:29:52,800 yourself and your own 5951 03:29:55,990 --> 03:29:54,800 genitive models so if you understand 5952 03:29:57,990 --> 03:29:56,000 your own purpose 5953 03:29:59,269 --> 03:29:58,000 for your purpose is just to aspire to 5954 03:30:02,229 --> 03:29:59,279 this these attracting 5955 03:30:03,030 --> 03:30:02,239 sets um that define you as the kind of 5956 03:30:05,429 --> 03:30:03,040 thing you are 5957 03:30:06,229 --> 03:30:05,439 and then the meaning would i think rest 5958 03:30:08,790 --> 03:30:06,239 upon this 5959 03:30:11,269 --> 03:30:08,800 some kind of self moral where now you 5960 03:30:13,349 --> 03:30:11,279 recognize you you're this kind of person 5961 03:30:14,309 --> 03:30:13,359 so you you can spin it off at a number 5962 03:30:16,710 --> 03:30:14,319 of different levels 5963 03:30:18,550 --> 03:30:16,720 so it wasn't a very i'll think of a more 5964 03:30:20,309 --> 03:30:18,560 succinct access to yeah 5965 03:30:22,630 --> 03:30:20,319 psychologically and attracting set would 5966 03:30:24,710 --> 03:30:22,640 be what mathematically that's fine but 5967 03:30:26,710 --> 03:30:24,720 for someone who is just interested in 5968 03:30:28,950 --> 03:30:26,720 how one lives their life 5969 03:30:31,030 --> 03:30:28,960 is this just a recapitulation of know 5970 03:30:33,349 --> 03:30:31,040 thyself 5971 03:30:34,630 --> 03:30:33,359 yes or the thing the things that the the 5972 03:30:37,110 --> 03:30:34,640 things that um 5973 03:30:38,469 --> 03:30:37,120 you are attracted to literally the 5974 03:30:39,990 --> 03:30:38,479 things that you see yourself being 5975 03:30:42,830 --> 03:30:40,000 attracted to the things that you see 5976 03:30:45,190 --> 03:30:42,840 yourself aspiring and working towards 5977 03:30:45,910 --> 03:30:45,200 um so what do you find interesting and 5978 03:30:47,670 --> 03:30:45,920 admirable 5979 03:30:49,590 --> 03:30:47,680 is that what you mean yeah yeah yeah 5980 03:30:52,229 --> 03:30:49,600 that was that at a very high level 5981 03:30:53,349 --> 03:30:52,239 but remember you know this operates at 5982 03:30:55,190 --> 03:30:53,359 all scales 5983 03:30:57,190 --> 03:30:55,200 of of a deep charging model where 5984 03:30:58,710 --> 03:30:57,200 remember the core 5985 03:31:00,630 --> 03:30:58,720 is dealing with with sort of more 5986 03:31:02,630 --> 03:31:00,640 abstract things such as 5987 03:31:03,830 --> 03:31:02,640 you know being likable being loved being 5988 03:31:06,150 --> 03:31:03,840 rich 5989 03:31:07,750 --> 03:31:06,160 but at the periphery you know there are 5990 03:31:09,510 --> 03:31:07,760 still um 5991 03:31:11,750 --> 03:31:09,520 there's a model of basically body 5992 03:31:15,510 --> 03:31:11,760 temperature body 5993 03:31:17,110 --> 03:31:15,520 um not being in pain so these are also 5994 03:31:18,950 --> 03:31:17,120 things that make me happy 5995 03:31:20,229 --> 03:31:18,960 in a sense you know these are the these 5996 03:31:21,990 --> 03:31:20,239 are attracting states 5997 03:31:24,070 --> 03:31:22,000 it's attractive to be at a particular 5998 03:31:27,190 --> 03:31:24,080 temperature attractive not 5999 03:31:27,510 --> 03:31:27,200 to sense pain it's attractive um you 6000 03:31:30,790 --> 03:31:27,520 know 6001 03:31:33,830 --> 03:31:30,800 to be hydrated to a particular extent uh 6002 03:31:34,229 --> 03:31:33,840 at some level it is also attractive you 6003 03:31:37,349 --> 03:31:34,239 know 6004 03:31:40,229 --> 03:31:37,359 if you have very deep genitive models 6005 03:31:41,429 --> 03:31:40,239 um that have this counter factual depth 6006 03:31:44,309 --> 03:31:41,439 then there are certain 6007 03:31:45,830 --> 03:31:44,319 counter factual outcomes that you would 6008 03:31:46,950 --> 03:31:45,840 find very surprising will be 6009 03:31:49,349 --> 03:31:46,960 unattractive 6010 03:31:50,790 --> 03:31:49,359 and there'll be other outcomes which you 6011 03:31:52,710 --> 03:31:50,800 would have learned 6012 03:31:54,790 --> 03:31:52,720 this is the kind of outcome that i 6013 03:31:55,349 --> 03:31:54,800 aspire to this is the kind of gender 6014 03:31:57,910 --> 03:31:55,359 model i 6015 03:31:59,510 --> 03:31:57,920 am you know at that point that i think 6016 03:32:02,550 --> 03:31:59,520 it would be 6017 03:32:03,990 --> 03:32:02,560 quite fair um to start thinking about 6018 03:32:06,150 --> 03:32:04,000 this in terms of you know 6019 03:32:07,510 --> 03:32:06,160 i'm going to develop this reputation you 6020 03:32:10,630 --> 03:32:07,520 know if i if i 6021 03:32:13,670 --> 03:32:10,640 say this or if i donate this or 6022 03:32:14,309 --> 03:32:13,680 i'm going to um i'm going to be this 6023 03:32:17,510 --> 03:32:14,319 kind of 6024 03:32:20,309 --> 03:32:17,520 uh person uh if i take these actions 6025 03:32:21,110 --> 03:32:20,319 so there are certainly entailed in the 6026 03:32:23,030 --> 03:32:21,120 prior 6027 03:32:26,309 --> 03:32:23,040 beliefs that constitute the genetic 6028 03:32:29,510 --> 03:32:26,319 model ways of behaving ways of being 6029 03:32:30,309 --> 03:32:29,520 outcomes that you a priori expect to 6030 03:32:33,510 --> 03:32:30,319 happen 6031 03:32:34,950 --> 03:32:33,520 and generally these are going to be 6032 03:32:37,110 --> 03:32:34,960 things that are consistent with your 6033 03:32:39,190 --> 03:32:37,120 self-image with the with with your 6034 03:32:40,630 --> 03:32:39,200 self-model and interestingly also 6035 03:32:43,910 --> 03:32:40,640 require 6036 03:32:45,750 --> 03:32:43,920 um an optimism bias to sort of you know 6037 03:32:47,510 --> 03:32:45,760 because of this self-fulfilling prophecy 6038 03:32:48,950 --> 03:32:47,520 of all our actions and decisions and 6039 03:32:50,469 --> 03:32:48,960 choices and behavior 6040 03:32:51,990 --> 03:32:50,479 if they're all in the service of 6041 03:32:54,469 --> 03:32:52,000 realizing 6042 03:32:55,910 --> 03:32:54,479 our fantasy about the kind of thing that 6043 03:33:00,229 --> 03:32:55,920 we are 6044 03:33:04,469 --> 03:33:00,239 selecting those information and 6045 03:33:07,349 --> 03:33:04,479 ignoring other kinds of information um 6046 03:33:08,710 --> 03:33:07,359 in order to find evidence indeed this is 6047 03:33:10,469 --> 03:33:08,720 the kind of thing i am so i'm going to 6048 03:33:14,070 --> 03:33:10,479 ignore any evidence 6049 03:33:15,750 --> 03:33:14,080 that run runs counter to my self-image 6050 03:33:17,990 --> 03:33:15,760 you know that i'm not liked or not 6051 03:33:20,550 --> 03:33:18,000 believed or that i'm very poor or 6052 03:33:21,349 --> 03:33:20,560 very hungry unless i can do something 6053 03:33:24,870 --> 03:33:21,359 about it 6054 03:33:26,070 --> 03:33:24,880 um so so you know 6055 03:33:29,590 --> 03:33:26,080 that's a real i think it's a really 6056 03:33:34,389 --> 03:33:32,550 it speaks to the um both the 6057 03:33:37,429 --> 03:33:34,399 self-fulfilling prophecy 6058 03:33:39,750 --> 03:33:37,439 but and this sort of optimism 6059 03:33:41,429 --> 03:33:39,760 optimistic aspect of active inference 6060 03:33:44,150 --> 03:33:41,439 which is not a fallacy 6061 03:33:44,790 --> 03:33:44,160 it is it is absolutely essential in 6062 03:33:47,510 --> 03:33:44,800 keeping us 6063 03:33:48,389 --> 03:33:47,520 on track and keeping it as within these 6064 03:33:51,830 --> 03:33:48,399 attracted 6065 03:33:53,190 --> 03:33:51,840 attracting or attractive states 6066 03:33:55,349 --> 03:33:53,200 so if you were doing if you're a 6067 03:33:56,150 --> 03:33:55,359 behavioral psychologist this would just 6068 03:34:00,710 --> 03:33:56,160 be 6069 03:34:03,190 --> 03:34:00,720 um some kind of reward if you're a 6070 03:34:05,590 --> 03:34:03,200 control engineer it would be some kind 6071 03:34:09,190 --> 03:34:05,600 of negative loss function 6072 03:34:10,790 --> 03:34:09,200 so you just score being in a given state 6073 03:34:12,229 --> 03:34:10,800 in terms of the probability that you 6074 03:34:15,910 --> 03:34:12,239 would find me 6075 03:34:17,510 --> 03:34:15,920 in that state and if it is unattractive 6076 03:34:19,349 --> 03:34:17,520 and the kind of thing i would avoid 6077 03:34:20,870 --> 03:34:19,359 that simply is a statement that has a 6078 03:34:22,469 --> 03:34:20,880 very low probability 6079 03:34:24,229 --> 03:34:22,479 that means that the negative logarithm 6080 03:34:25,110 --> 03:34:24,239 is very very high it just means it's 6081 03:34:27,990 --> 03:34:25,120 surprising 6082 03:34:28,950 --> 03:34:28,000 so it's just another way of saying that 6083 03:34:31,590 --> 03:34:28,960 the attracting 6084 03:34:33,590 --> 03:34:31,600 set of states or the attractive states 6085 03:34:36,070 --> 03:34:33,600 are those that i am not surprised 6086 03:34:37,190 --> 03:34:36,080 to be in that they are comfortable 6087 03:34:39,750 --> 03:34:37,200 they're familiar 6088 03:34:41,510 --> 03:34:39,760 given i am who i am this is exactly the 6089 03:34:44,870 --> 03:34:41,520 kind of state that i think i should 6090 03:34:47,510 --> 03:34:44,880 i should pause and be occupied 6091 03:34:48,710 --> 03:34:47,520 again almost all that you say there's so 6092 03:34:50,790 --> 03:34:48,720 many thoughts that occur 6093 03:34:52,150 --> 03:34:50,800 i'll say some of them now not for you to 6094 03:34:54,150 --> 03:34:52,160 explore but maybe for people in the 6095 03:34:55,349 --> 03:34:54,160 comments section to explore 6096 03:34:56,950 --> 03:34:55,359 i was thinking when you were talking 6097 03:34:58,469 --> 03:34:56,960 about different goals that one has and 6098 03:34:58,790 --> 03:34:58,479 there's different levels of abstraction 6099 03:35:00,309 --> 03:34:58,800 so 6100 03:35:01,990 --> 03:35:00,319 one is to regulate your body temperature 6101 03:35:03,190 --> 03:35:02,000 at an extremely low level then at a high 6102 03:35:05,190 --> 03:35:03,200 level one might be to 6103 03:35:07,269 --> 03:35:05,200 be a lovable person or to love someone 6104 03:35:09,349 --> 03:35:07,279 else then i was wondering well though 6105 03:35:11,030 --> 03:35:09,359 you can go much much lower to parts that 6106 03:35:14,710 --> 03:35:11,040 you don't have control over so 6107 03:35:16,870 --> 03:35:14,720 it's it's you want to have 6108 03:35:18,469 --> 03:35:16,880 transcriptase in your cells so that you 6109 03:35:20,550 --> 03:35:18,479 can have 6110 03:35:21,990 --> 03:35:20,560 a replication of dna but you also want 6111 03:35:23,429 --> 03:35:22,000 to have cell walls it's not like you can 6112 03:35:24,229 --> 03:35:23,439 control that but that's at the extremely 6113 03:35:25,670 --> 03:35:24,239 low level 6114 03:35:27,110 --> 03:35:25,680 and then at a high level what i'm 6115 03:35:29,349 --> 03:35:27,120 wondering is is there a relationship 6116 03:35:30,790 --> 03:35:29,359 between the highest ideal and then god 6117 03:35:32,630 --> 03:35:30,800 and then is there a relationship to 6118 03:35:34,630 --> 03:35:32,640 being fragmented there and having 6119 03:35:35,910 --> 03:35:34,640 what's not monotheistic so that is 6120 03:35:39,910 --> 03:35:35,920 polytheistic 6121 03:35:41,590 --> 03:35:39,920 and there's a contradiction between them 6122 03:35:43,910 --> 03:35:41,600 is that one of the reasons why in 6123 03:35:44,389 --> 03:35:43,920 monotheism they say you cannot serve two 6124 03:35:46,150 --> 03:35:44,399 gods 6125 03:35:47,750 --> 03:35:46,160 and is that related to people who are 6126 03:35:49,990 --> 03:35:47,760 well all of us are in some degree 6127 03:35:52,229 --> 03:35:50,000 psychologically 6128 03:35:53,990 --> 03:35:52,239 not fully integrated but is there a 6129 03:35:55,830 --> 03:35:54,000 relationship between monotheism and 6130 03:35:56,710 --> 03:35:55,840 being fully integrated as a person where 6131 03:35:58,550 --> 03:35:56,720 you have one 6132 03:35:59,910 --> 03:35:58,560 goal that you're working toward and 6133 03:36:02,229 --> 03:35:59,920 they're not contradicted 6134 03:36:05,429 --> 03:36:02,239 at some higher step so you're living in 6135 03:36:07,030 --> 03:36:05,439 a in a more congruent fashion 6136 03:36:08,070 --> 03:36:07,040 you don't have to comment on that you 6137 03:36:08,950 --> 03:36:08,080 could probably say that's all 6138 03:36:10,870 --> 03:36:08,960 foolishness but 6139 03:36:12,550 --> 03:36:10,880 people oh no no no don't do i can't 6140 03:36:13,429 --> 03:36:12,560 resist because when you say i have lots 6141 03:36:16,469 --> 03:36:13,439 of thoughts as well 6142 03:36:18,389 --> 03:36:16,479 um so that that sort of can we act in 6143 03:36:20,309 --> 03:36:18,399 order to make sure that our messenger 6144 03:36:23,269 --> 03:36:20,319 rna is working properly 6145 03:36:25,110 --> 03:36:23,279 um yes you can actually but you'd have 6146 03:36:28,710 --> 03:36:25,120 to use this sort of um 6147 03:36:29,590 --> 03:36:28,720 sort of scale different scales of markov 6148 03:36:32,710 --> 03:36:29,600 blankets 6149 03:36:36,309 --> 03:36:32,720 uh but also there's there is actually 6150 03:36:37,990 --> 03:36:36,319 a formalism that allows you to um 6151 03:36:39,590 --> 03:36:38,000 look at the way that say the central 6152 03:36:41,349 --> 03:36:39,600 nervous system 6153 03:36:42,950 --> 03:36:41,359 through neuroendocrinology and through 6154 03:36:45,110 --> 03:36:42,960 sort of your 6155 03:36:46,229 --> 03:36:45,120 neuro immunological mechanisms does 6156 03:36:48,469 --> 03:36:46,239 actually 6157 03:36:49,510 --> 03:36:48,479 have an express effect on on gene 6158 03:36:51,910 --> 03:36:49,520 expression and 6159 03:36:53,030 --> 03:36:51,920 right so this speaks to the sort of the 6160 03:36:55,429 --> 03:36:53,040 you know the 6161 03:36:56,790 --> 03:36:55,439 the transactions both between markov 6162 03:36:59,750 --> 03:36:56,800 blankets but also 6163 03:37:01,349 --> 03:36:59,760 if a markov blanket at one scale exists 6164 03:37:02,229 --> 03:37:01,359 that necessarily implies existence at 6165 03:37:04,070 --> 03:37:02,239 another scale 6166 03:37:05,670 --> 03:37:04,080 so a cell can only exist if the organ 6167 03:37:08,710 --> 03:37:05,680 exists but in the same 6168 03:37:10,870 --> 03:37:08,720 spirit and in in reverse the organelle 6169 03:37:12,550 --> 03:37:10,880 exists in virtue of the cells existing 6170 03:37:14,710 --> 03:37:12,560 and all of this has to maintain 6171 03:37:15,990 --> 03:37:14,720 a free energy minimizing dynamic in 6172 03:37:18,309 --> 03:37:16,000 order to keep uh 6173 03:37:19,990 --> 03:37:18,319 you know both scales in play at the same 6174 03:37:21,190 --> 03:37:20,000 time so you know it's a really 6175 03:37:23,510 --> 03:37:21,200 i think that's a really interesting 6176 03:37:26,469 --> 03:37:23,520 example the god versus 6177 03:37:27,110 --> 03:37:26,479 um or monit uh polytheistic versus 6178 03:37:30,070 --> 03:37:27,120 monitors 6179 03:37:30,389 --> 03:37:30,080 monotheistic models of the world i think 6180 03:37:33,830 --> 03:37:30,399 that 6181 03:37:36,950 --> 03:37:33,840 description of 6182 03:37:38,710 --> 03:37:36,960 um um sort of you know sources of 6183 03:37:40,469 --> 03:37:38,720 cognitive dissonance but possibly of a 6184 03:37:43,030 --> 03:37:40,479 theological or existential 6185 03:37:45,110 --> 03:37:43,040 um or the sort that might underwrite or 6186 03:37:47,950 --> 03:37:45,120 not ontological security 6187 03:37:49,349 --> 03:37:47,960 that you know if i do have these 6188 03:37:51,750 --> 03:37:49,359 counterfactuals 6189 03:37:52,630 --> 03:37:51,760 about different things of the kind of 6190 03:37:57,030 --> 03:37:52,640 person that i 6191 03:38:00,389 --> 03:37:57,040 am or the um the date is that 6192 03:38:01,110 --> 03:38:00,399 i commit or subscribe to um then that's 6193 03:38:04,229 --> 03:38:01,120 just 6194 03:38:05,910 --> 03:38:04,239 another example of the opportunity to 6195 03:38:07,750 --> 03:38:05,920 resolve uncertainty but 6196 03:38:09,110 --> 03:38:07,760 in that sense there's also uncertainty 6197 03:38:10,150 --> 03:38:09,120 there there's this puzzlement that 6198 03:38:12,630 --> 03:38:10,160 underwrites 6199 03:38:14,309 --> 03:38:12,640 the meta heart problem that is it this 6200 03:38:14,950 --> 03:38:14,319 kind of god of that kind of god is it 6201 03:38:21,510 --> 03:38:14,960 the 6202 03:38:24,469 --> 03:38:21,520 um and 6203 03:38:25,030 --> 03:38:24,479 into g by introducing that uncertainty 6204 03:38:27,590 --> 03:38:25,040 you do 6205 03:38:28,870 --> 03:38:27,600 you may well um expose yourself to 6206 03:38:32,150 --> 03:38:28,880 culture dissonance 6207 03:38:33,269 --> 03:38:32,160 and ambiguity and an existential angst 6208 03:38:35,990 --> 03:38:33,279 out that level 6209 03:38:37,429 --> 03:38:36,000 which you will actually try to resolve 6210 03:38:39,910 --> 03:38:37,439 so that's this again this 6211 03:38:42,389 --> 03:38:39,920 imperative for self-evidencing is acting 6212 03:38:45,429 --> 03:38:42,399 in a way to minimize expected surprise 6213 03:38:46,870 --> 03:38:45,439 or uncertainty in the future so it may 6214 03:38:50,389 --> 03:38:46,880 well be that certain 6215 03:38:54,550 --> 03:38:50,399 um clerics 6216 03:38:57,750 --> 03:38:54,560 certain sorry what clerics uh clerics 6217 03:39:00,790 --> 03:38:57,760 clerics yes or people people people 6218 03:39:04,710 --> 03:39:00,800 you know with an ecclesiastical 6219 03:39:05,990 --> 03:39:04,720 uh um leaning they may spend a lot of 6220 03:39:07,429 --> 03:39:06,000 time trying to resolve 6221 03:39:09,590 --> 03:39:07,439 that kind of uncertainty that kind of 6222 03:39:11,590 --> 03:39:09,600 come to distance yeah 6223 03:39:13,670 --> 03:39:11,600 okay two quick questions that's it faraz 6224 03:39:15,269 --> 03:39:13,680 says in the context of embody cognition 6225 03:39:18,389 --> 03:39:15,279 and by the way faraz is someone 6226 03:39:21,269 --> 03:39:18,399 who graduated from u of t 6227 03:39:22,790 --> 03:39:21,279 right around here in neuroscience and i 6228 03:39:23,990 --> 03:39:22,800 forgot the other one so he's going to 6229 03:39:25,910 --> 03:39:24,000 comment in the comment section about 6230 03:39:27,349 --> 03:39:25,920 what i forgot in the context of embody 6231 03:39:29,349 --> 03:39:27,359 cognition what is the relationship 6232 03:39:31,830 --> 03:39:29,359 between perception and mathematics 6233 03:39:32,710 --> 03:39:31,840 and furthermore if the external world 6234 03:39:35,429 --> 03:39:32,720 perceives 6235 03:39:36,070 --> 03:39:35,439 our actions can we extrapolate from that 6236 03:39:38,469 --> 03:39:36,080 assertion 6237 03:39:41,590 --> 03:39:38,479 the idea that our actions matter to the 6238 03:39:44,630 --> 03:39:43,990 so that um that question you you sort of 6239 03:39:47,349 --> 03:39:44,640 hinted at 6240 03:39:50,150 --> 03:39:47,359 before when you were when you were um 6241 03:39:52,630 --> 03:39:50,160 the duality between internal external 6242 03:39:53,990 --> 03:39:52,640 exactly yeah that that sort of um 6243 03:39:56,070 --> 03:39:54,000 perfect symmetry 6244 03:39:57,910 --> 03:39:56,080 um which i thought was you know that 6245 03:39:59,910 --> 03:39:57,920 that was insightful and i think 6246 03:40:02,389 --> 03:39:59,920 um that insight sort of speaks to the 6247 03:40:06,469 --> 03:40:02,399 second half half of this question here 6248 03:40:06,950 --> 03:40:06,479 um so you know it is certainly the case 6249 03:40:10,469 --> 03:40:06,960 that 6250 03:40:11,910 --> 03:40:10,479 when you uh simulate um agents 6251 03:40:13,830 --> 03:40:11,920 con specifics in a particular 6252 03:40:17,670 --> 03:40:13,840 environment or eco niche 6253 03:40:21,189 --> 03:40:17,680 um and you just integrate these 6254 03:40:25,349 --> 03:40:21,199 uh simulation of physics engines um 6255 03:40:28,630 --> 03:40:25,359 using um uh the free energy principle 6256 03:40:32,389 --> 03:40:28,640 you get the um the kind of 6257 03:40:33,110 --> 03:40:32,399 um learning that um you would normally 6258 03:40:35,590 --> 03:40:33,120 expect to see 6259 03:40:37,429 --> 03:40:35,600 in the agents about the environment but 6260 03:40:40,469 --> 03:40:37,439 that is exactly mirrored 6261 03:40:44,070 --> 03:40:40,479 by the environment learning about the 6262 03:40:47,110 --> 03:40:44,080 denizens that you know it plays host to 6263 03:40:50,070 --> 03:40:47,120 so i'm sure you know this but you know 6264 03:40:51,830 --> 03:40:50,080 my favorite example from colleagues who 6265 03:40:52,469 --> 03:40:51,840 really you know push these arguments as 6266 03:40:54,710 --> 03:40:52,479 far as they 6267 03:40:55,910 --> 03:40:54,720 they can go at the present time uh my 6268 03:40:58,070 --> 03:40:55,920 favorite um 6269 03:40:59,349 --> 03:40:58,080 their favorite and my favorite example 6270 03:41:02,070 --> 03:40:59,359 is a notion of a 6271 03:41:02,469 --> 03:41:02,080 desire path or an elephant path which is 6272 03:41:15,030 --> 03:41:02,479 the 6273 03:41:18,790 --> 03:41:15,040 pavement or i can take a shortcut 6274 03:41:22,389 --> 03:41:18,800 across the grass and if i so do 6275 03:41:24,309 --> 03:41:22,399 um i will eventually me and all my con 6276 03:41:28,710 --> 03:41:24,319 specifics will eventually 6277 03:41:32,309 --> 03:41:28,720 wear a a dusty trail 6278 03:41:35,670 --> 03:41:32,319 uh of grassless signs and queues 6279 03:41:36,870 --> 03:41:35,680 uh from uh you know my office directly 6280 03:41:38,309 --> 03:41:36,880 to the cafe 6281 03:41:40,070 --> 03:41:38,319 so from the point of view of the 6282 03:41:42,150 --> 03:41:40,080 environment this is basically the 6283 03:41:45,830 --> 03:41:42,160 environment learning about the behavior 6284 03:41:50,070 --> 03:41:45,840 of the kinds of agents that you know 6285 03:41:52,070 --> 03:41:50,080 that occupies that that 6286 03:41:53,670 --> 03:41:52,080 that environment so the environment is 6287 03:41:56,710 --> 03:41:53,680 learning about the behavior 6288 03:41:57,750 --> 03:41:56,720 by being eroded by being changed so it's 6289 03:42:00,229 --> 03:41:57,760 literally just 6290 03:42:01,349 --> 03:42:00,239 remembering in its structure in its 6291 03:42:04,309 --> 03:42:01,359 subpersonal 6292 03:42:05,590 --> 03:42:04,319 structure it is learning about the uh 6293 03:42:07,429 --> 03:42:05,600 the con specifics 6294 03:42:09,189 --> 03:42:07,439 that are good for occupying that 6295 03:42:10,870 --> 03:42:09,199 environment 6296 03:42:12,229 --> 03:42:10,880 the con specifics that are occupying 6297 03:42:13,349 --> 03:42:12,239 that environment what are the con 6298 03:42:16,790 --> 03:42:13,359 specifics 6299 03:42:17,990 --> 03:42:16,800 oh a con a con specific um you and i are 6300 03:42:20,710 --> 03:42:18,000 con specifics because we're 6301 03:42:22,550 --> 03:42:20,720 from the same species so is it sorry 6302 03:42:25,429 --> 03:42:22,560 it's just a way of describing 6303 03:42:26,309 --> 03:42:25,439 an ensemble of or a collection of 6304 03:42:29,590 --> 03:42:26,319 phenotypes 6305 03:42:30,790 --> 03:42:29,600 agents that have the you know come from 6306 03:42:33,670 --> 03:42:30,800 the same species 6307 03:42:35,429 --> 03:42:33,680 um and the environment can learn this is 6308 03:42:38,710 --> 03:42:35,439 the kind of phenotype 6309 03:42:41,110 --> 03:42:38,720 that operates well in my environment 6310 03:42:42,630 --> 03:42:41,120 whilst at the same time the phenotypes 6311 03:42:44,070 --> 03:42:42,640 are trying to change to operate better 6312 03:42:47,189 --> 03:42:44,080 in this environment so there's 6313 03:42:50,950 --> 03:42:47,199 a there's a your circular causality 6314 03:42:53,670 --> 03:42:50,960 your while while the while the the 6315 03:42:55,590 --> 03:42:53,680 the phenotypes or the con specifics are 6316 03:42:57,269 --> 03:42:55,600 trying to adapt to the environment 6317 03:42:59,830 --> 03:42:57,279 the environment is also adapting to 6318 03:43:03,110 --> 03:42:59,840 those con specifics so it's a dance 6319 03:43:06,309 --> 03:43:03,120 um that in fact can get quite high order 6320 03:43:09,429 --> 03:43:06,319 in the sense now that that you and i 6321 03:43:10,469 --> 03:43:09,439 will now see the path and realize oh 6322 03:43:13,429 --> 03:43:10,479 that must 6323 03:43:16,070 --> 03:43:13,439 this path leads to to somewhere that it 6324 03:43:19,349 --> 03:43:16,080 must be nice for things like me to go 6325 03:43:21,670 --> 03:43:19,359 so i can just infer seeing a desire path 6326 03:43:22,710 --> 03:43:21,680 that it will lead to something i desire 6327 03:43:24,790 --> 03:43:22,720 because i know 6328 03:43:25,990 --> 03:43:24,800 that everybody else who has used that 6329 03:43:27,670 --> 03:43:26,000 are con specifics 6330 03:43:29,830 --> 03:43:27,680 they like the same kinds of things they 6331 03:43:33,030 --> 03:43:29,840 have the same attracting sets 6332 03:43:36,630 --> 03:43:33,040 so now the environment has learned about 6333 03:43:38,630 --> 03:43:36,640 the the phenotypes and has 6334 03:43:40,630 --> 03:43:38,640 memorized it in its structure and now 6335 03:43:42,309 --> 03:43:40,640 the phenotypes are now using that to 6336 03:43:42,790 --> 03:43:42,319 infer the kinds of things that i should 6337 03:43:44,950 --> 03:43:42,800 do 6338 03:43:46,150 --> 03:43:44,960 so now you get something like just using 6339 03:43:49,910 --> 03:43:46,160 the environment 6340 03:43:52,229 --> 03:43:49,920 to cooperate and to signal and to change 6341 03:43:53,990 --> 03:43:52,239 um and to provide information for other 6342 03:43:55,590 --> 03:43:54,000 things other creatures like me 6343 03:43:57,670 --> 03:43:55,600 and you can take that right through to 6344 03:44:00,469 --> 03:43:57,680 the emergence of roads 6345 03:44:02,870 --> 03:44:00,479 of traffic lights of language so you 6346 03:44:05,750 --> 03:44:02,880 move these arguments that's interesting 6347 03:44:06,309 --> 03:44:05,760 cultural domain um and now you've you 6348 03:44:08,150 --> 03:44:06,319 know 6349 03:44:09,910 --> 03:44:08,160 so language is that part of the 6350 03:44:11,110 --> 03:44:09,920 environment or is it part of papa's 6351 03:44:13,269 --> 03:44:11,120 third world or 6352 03:44:14,950 --> 03:44:13,279 is it you know is it part of your brain 6353 03:44:16,229 --> 03:44:14,960 i i yeah i don't think you tie it down 6354 03:44:17,429 --> 03:44:16,239 like that because of this circular 6355 03:44:20,309 --> 03:44:17,439 causality 6356 03:44:20,950 --> 03:44:20,319 um that you you hinted at more than 6357 03:44:22,710 --> 03:44:20,960 hinted at 6358 03:44:23,990 --> 03:44:22,720 when you're when you recognize that a 6359 03:44:25,269 --> 03:44:24,000 markov blanket 6360 03:44:27,110 --> 03:44:25,279 you know it's quite arbitrary what is 6361 03:44:29,269 --> 03:44:27,120 internal external just depends upon 6362 03:44:30,790 --> 03:44:29,279 which point of view you're taking so 6363 03:44:31,910 --> 03:44:30,800 there's a really interesting question 6364 03:44:33,590 --> 03:44:31,920 which you can take in many many 6365 03:44:36,870 --> 03:44:33,600 different directions 6366 03:44:39,429 --> 03:44:36,880 you know i i i'm personally not 6367 03:44:41,910 --> 03:44:39,439 um not taking it in those directions 6368 03:44:43,349 --> 03:44:41,920 because i got distracted by other things 6369 03:44:44,870 --> 03:44:43,359 but i have lots of young colleagues 6370 03:44:45,189 --> 03:44:44,880 around the world who are really trying 6371 03:44:49,750 --> 03:44:45,199 to 6372 03:44:52,389 --> 03:44:49,760 evolutionary psychology 6373 03:44:53,429 --> 03:44:52,399 evo devo uh the relationship to niche 6374 03:44:55,910 --> 03:44:53,439 construction 6375 03:44:56,870 --> 03:44:55,920 and the relationship to what andy clark 6376 03:44:58,870 --> 03:44:56,880 would have would have 6377 03:45:00,389 --> 03:44:58,880 promoted which is the designed 6378 03:45:03,510 --> 03:45:00,399 environment so one of the 6379 03:45:06,150 --> 03:45:03,520 one of the sort of um you know p 6380 03:45:06,950 --> 03:45:06,160 parts of the triple uh you know the four 6381 03:45:09,510 --> 03:45:06,960 e's 6382 03:45:10,309 --> 03:45:09,520 you know so yes it is embodied but 6383 03:45:13,349 --> 03:45:10,319 there's also 6384 03:45:16,790 --> 03:45:13,359 um you know an extension it's situated 6385 03:45:17,910 --> 03:45:16,800 um so the environment not just the 6386 03:45:19,510 --> 03:45:17,920 physical environment 6387 03:45:21,590 --> 03:45:19,520 outside my body but my body as 6388 03:45:23,590 --> 03:45:21,600 environment as well starts to become 6389 03:45:25,429 --> 03:45:23,600 you know an important part of this 6390 03:45:28,870 --> 03:45:25,439 reciprocal loop and this sort of 6391 03:45:32,229 --> 03:45:28,880 joint free energy minimizing mechanics 6392 03:45:32,950 --> 03:45:32,239 that rests upon a reciprocal exchange 6393 03:45:34,870 --> 03:45:32,960 between 6394 03:45:37,030 --> 03:45:34,880 you know one side of a markov blanket 6395 03:45:39,990 --> 03:45:37,040 and the other side of the markov blanket 6396 03:45:41,030 --> 03:45:40,000 i'll just close with with the first part 6397 03:45:44,229 --> 03:45:41,040 of the question which is 6398 03:45:47,750 --> 03:45:44,239 does that mean the environment perceives 6399 03:45:49,030 --> 03:45:47,760 i i would say possibly not um 6400 03:45:50,469 --> 03:45:49,040 it certainly would be the case 6401 03:45:51,269 --> 03:45:50,479 mathematically speaking that the 6402 03:45:54,150 --> 03:45:51,279 environment is 6403 03:45:56,469 --> 03:45:54,160 learning but we generally reserve the 6404 03:45:58,950 --> 03:45:56,479 notion of perception to refer to 6405 03:46:00,389 --> 03:45:58,960 to perceptual inference or inference 6406 03:46:03,030 --> 03:46:00,399 about states 6407 03:46:04,870 --> 03:46:03,040 of the world as opposed to the 6408 03:46:07,750 --> 03:46:04,880 parameters of a generative model 6409 03:46:08,790 --> 03:46:07,760 which um are more attributes of 6410 03:46:13,269 --> 03:46:08,800 contingencies 6411 03:46:15,269 --> 03:46:13,279 laws and the like so that we we infer 6412 03:46:16,950 --> 03:46:15,279 that the world is in this state or that 6413 03:46:19,030 --> 03:46:16,960 state at this point in time 6414 03:46:21,429 --> 03:46:19,040 but we learn the contingencies and the 6415 03:46:24,309 --> 03:46:21,439 lawful mappings the likelihoods 6416 03:46:25,349 --> 03:46:24,319 and the transition probabilities um that 6417 03:46:27,510 --> 03:46:25,359 underwrite 6418 03:46:30,070 --> 03:46:27,520 the changes and transitions in the state 6419 03:46:33,590 --> 03:46:30,080 the other flux of states in the world 6420 03:46:35,990 --> 03:46:33,600 so um it it's it's probably the case 6421 03:46:38,070 --> 03:46:36,000 that the environment 6422 03:46:39,670 --> 03:46:38,080 the physical environment not the body 6423 03:46:41,349 --> 03:46:39,680 environment but so you know things like 6424 03:46:44,550 --> 03:46:41,359 roads and paths and buildings 6425 03:46:45,990 --> 03:46:44,560 trees um 6426 03:46:47,670 --> 03:46:46,000 they learn that they probably don't 6427 03:46:49,830 --> 03:46:47,680 infer and perceive in the sense of 6428 03:46:51,269 --> 03:46:49,840 having qualitative experience of qualia 6429 03:46:53,510 --> 03:46:51,279 but they do learn 6430 03:46:54,950 --> 03:46:53,520 um you know they do update their 6431 03:46:56,630 --> 03:46:54,960 parameters in a way 6432 03:46:58,150 --> 03:46:56,640 to model what's on the other side of 6433 03:47:01,189 --> 03:46:58,160 their mark off blanket which is you and 6434 03:47:04,630 --> 03:47:03,110 thank you sir you've given you've been 6435 03:47:06,950 --> 03:47:04,640 far too generous with your time 6436 03:47:08,790 --> 03:47:06,960 and i appreciate it immensely i think 6437 03:47:10,309 --> 03:47:08,800 this conversation will be 6438 03:47:12,070 --> 03:47:10,319 fruitful for quite a few people 6439 03:47:14,229 --> 03:47:12,080 especially more on the 6440 03:47:15,349 --> 03:47:14,239 philosophical end there's not many most 6441 03:47:16,070 --> 03:47:15,359 of the interviews with you are more 6442 03:47:17,910 --> 03:47:16,080 technical so 6443 03:47:19,830 --> 03:47:17,920 i'm glad that we got a bit philosophical 6444 03:47:20,870 --> 03:47:19,840 even though i love some of the technical 6445 03:47:23,189 --> 03:47:20,880 questions 6446 03:47:24,070 --> 03:47:23,199 i have maybe the 30 30 more that i 6447 03:47:28,070 --> 03:47:24,080 didn't get to but 6448 03:47:29,590 --> 03:47:28,080 we'll save that for the next time well 6449 03:47:31,590 --> 03:47:29,600 as as last time it's been a real 6450 03:47:34,150 --> 03:47:31,600 pleasure talking to you 6451 03:47:35,670 --> 03:47:34,160 thank you i look forward to our next uh 6452 03:47:37,750 --> 03:47:35,680 next exchange 6453 03:47:39,189 --> 03:47:37,760 thank you man appreciate it honestly i 6454 03:47:41,269 --> 03:47:39,199 do thank you so much and you've helped 6455 03:47:43,429 --> 03:47:41,279 me psychologically as well because 6456 03:47:44,710 --> 03:47:43,439 well just you telling me that other 6457 03:47:46,229 --> 03:47:44,720 people are 6458 03:47:47,990 --> 03:47:46,239 are going through what i'm going through 6459 03:47:49,510 --> 03:47:48,000 but sometimes even worse and sometimes 6460 03:47:51,349 --> 03:47:49,520 better but it's normal 6461 03:47:53,030 --> 03:47:51,359 that gave me at first some anxiety 6462 03:47:54,469 --> 03:47:53,040 because i was thinking well 6463 03:47:56,229 --> 03:47:54,479 if your colleagues are going through 6464 03:47:58,229 --> 03:47:56,239 psychotic breaks i'm not at a psychotic 6465 03:48:00,950 --> 03:47:58,239 break but that means that it's possible 6466 03:48:01,349 --> 03:48:00,960 and if cantor studying infinity could go 6467 03:48:03,189 --> 03:48:01,359 through 6468 03:48:05,030 --> 03:48:03,199 psychotic breaks i wonder how much of 6469 03:48:06,950 --> 03:48:05,040 what i'm doing is self-imposed from 6470 03:48:08,870 --> 03:48:06,960 my own study of consciousness and 6471 03:48:10,710 --> 03:48:08,880 investigating the universe 6472 03:48:12,309 --> 03:48:10,720 so it gives me a bit of anxiety because 6473 03:48:13,349 --> 03:48:12,319 it's like okay well this is a path that 6474 03:48:15,110 --> 03:48:13,359 may lead to that 6475 03:48:16,870 --> 03:48:15,120 but at the same time it gives me some 6476 03:48:19,349 --> 03:48:16,880 calm because you're saying 6477 03:48:21,030 --> 03:48:19,359 it's okay first of all if it gets 6478 03:48:23,910 --> 03:48:21,040 serious it can be treated 6479 03:48:26,150 --> 03:48:23,920 don't worry about that and and it 6480 03:48:26,710 --> 03:48:26,160 doesn't seem like i give off any signs 6481 03:48:28,389 --> 03:48:26,720 of 6482 03:48:31,349 --> 03:48:28,399 being schizophrenic even though i'm 6483 03:48:34,950 --> 03:48:31,359 concerned about it so 6484 03:48:38,309 --> 03:48:34,960 yes you're concerned means you can't be 6485 03:48:40,309 --> 03:48:38,319 you can't be psychotic i i did cross my 6486 03:48:43,189 --> 03:48:40,319 mind when you're talking about the 6487 03:48:44,790 --> 03:48:43,199 monotheism versus polytheism um and 6488 03:48:46,790 --> 03:48:44,800 resolving that sort of cognitive 6489 03:48:48,229 --> 03:48:46,800 dissonance and that existential angst 6490 03:48:49,269 --> 03:48:48,239 you get when you you know you could be 6491 03:48:52,389 --> 03:48:49,279 this way or that way 6492 03:48:54,070 --> 03:48:52,399 i mean the very ability to entertain 6493 03:48:56,790 --> 03:48:54,080 these counterfactuals 6494 03:48:57,429 --> 03:48:56,800 is very very close to to to psychosis 6495 03:48:59,590 --> 03:48:57,439 and sorry 6496 03:49:02,070 --> 03:48:59,600 um you know the kind of the kind of 6497 03:49:04,790 --> 03:49:02,080 angst you see manic depressive psychosis 6498 03:49:06,070 --> 03:49:04,800 so it's a natural state for curious 6499 03:49:08,070 --> 03:49:06,080 creatures 6500 03:49:10,389 --> 03:49:08,080 so the anxiety you're gonna go over the 6501 03:49:11,670 --> 03:49:10,399 edge is just a price you pay for being a 6502 03:49:14,150 --> 03:49:11,680 curious creature 6503 03:49:15,349 --> 03:49:14,160 um and as you say you'll know when 6504 03:49:17,030 --> 03:49:15,359 you're going too far 6505 03:49:18,389 --> 03:49:17,040 and you either get your wife to call him 6506 03:49:20,550 --> 03:49:18,399 the doctor or 6507 03:49:21,910 --> 03:49:20,560 you'll just sort of commit to one way of 6508 03:49:24,630 --> 03:49:21,920 being on another way of being 6509 03:49:25,269 --> 03:49:24,640 um you know you you you will know that 6510 03:49:28,309 --> 03:49:25,279 but it's 6511 03:49:29,590 --> 03:49:28,319 you know what i'm saying is don't 6512 03:49:31,349 --> 03:49:29,600 you shouldn't be frightened of this you 6513 03:49:33,269 --> 03:49:31,359 should you should celebrate this 6514 03:49:35,030 --> 03:49:33,279 you know which is why i always encourage 6515 03:49:42,150 --> 03:49:35,040 you to make sure you write down 6516 03:49:46,550 --> 03:49:44,950 of ontological security what i don't do 6517 03:49:48,550 --> 03:49:46,560 is rewrite and that's my problem 6518 03:49:49,670 --> 03:49:48,560 as well because plenty of the writing is 6519 03:49:52,790 --> 03:49:49,680 in the rewriting 6520 03:49:55,030 --> 03:49:52,800 well 6521 03:49:55,830 --> 03:49:55,040 but anyway i got to work on that thank 6522 03:49:58,309 --> 03:49:55,840 you sir 6523 03:50:00,150 --> 03:49:58,319 you're i gotta i feel like i've gotten 6524 03:50:01,349 --> 03:50:00,160 along with you 6525 03:50:02,790 --> 03:50:01,359 more than almost anyone that i've 6526 03:50:04,309 --> 03:50:02,800 interviewed and i've interviewed almost 6527 03:50:06,469 --> 03:50:04,319 50 or 6528 03:50:08,469 --> 03:50:06,479 50 plus people so i don't i don't know 6529 03:50:11,429 --> 03:50:08,479 what to attribute to that but 6530 03:50:12,710 --> 03:50:11,439 it's probably your your demeanor and 6531 03:50:14,389 --> 03:50:12,720 your 6532 03:50:16,469 --> 03:50:14,399 there's a caringness that comes across 6533 03:50:18,309 --> 03:50:16,479 in your voice and i appreciate that and 6534 03:50:20,550 --> 03:50:18,319 humbleness as well thank you